Can discuss here. We can del any comments when we go final.

Well reading the above message by Bar I would like to chip in.

Firstly, the punishments of the crime, there are two types of crimes in general as I see it:
1) The type of criminal, who rather commonly, ignores consequences, consider it a type of villain who as a player wants and expects to get away with everything. These players should be encouraged to take their crimes to locations where there are no law enforcement or where the law enforcement can be bribed.
2) The type of criminal, who goes into a crime knowing and expecting to be caught.

The issue is that the punishment for both types of players are the same, and the punishment frequently feels like an OOC thing, sit and be afk for X number of hours, while I think it is a good punishment for type 1, and a not-so-subtle hint that they may want to take their crimes elsewhere, then i'd wish for a bit of creativity for type 2. Make the IC punishment OOC enjoyable.

A special word on the Enclave:
Our laws are pretty simple:
1) Respect the residents.
2) Do not wear red unless you are a red wizard.
The punishments for either thing depends on the offender, often they are sent away, but we can get creative, it depends very much on what the player wants however.

A special word on Mithuth:
The part that it is not a drow city? Please, in bold capital letters. I just come from (yet another) situation where people did'nt get that, and wanted us to redesign the rules of the area just for him...
Also, the only "law" they have as far as I know is this: Its illegal to enslave drow.
And it should also be noted that conflict in Mithuth are to be expected, its a dog-eats-dog world.

Punishment and Dealing with Authorities, some thoughts

First off, I'd argue that "the keep it IC" statement used in the above is an oversimplification that needs to expanded. I agree the conflict should be kept IC, but good OOC communication can be crucial. CvC, but cooperating as players.

Punishments

Punishments are largely designed to be punishments IC and OOC. By default the character is imprisoned and left to rot for a time (with some interrogations here and there) while evidence is collected, weighed and judges can be found. This is more true in structured Sharessia. Which is by design, we want Sharessia to less crime ridden than the other areas, so it's structured to reward it less.

We tend to keep it that way when we are not in on the RP, if it's coming from outside. If you make OOC agreements with guard or DMs, this can be streamlined. Particularly if you are meaning to get caught and want something out of it, like slavery or a good spanking.

Guard RP is some of the closest to forced RP we have on the server. Remember in most cases you are springing this on a guard. Sometimes this not a fun thing for them.

Dealing with authorities

IC

If you mouth off to authorities, particularly from behind bars, there will likely be consequences. I've seen many a people start with a relatively minor offense and talk their way to a loss of character. Insulting the judge and bragging about the correctness of your crimes is likely to cause them to decide you are too dangerous and crazy to let back into society.

OOC

Dictating to a judge or guard, telling them what they should or should not be doing and how to play their character or run the server is a bad idea. If you have questions, go ahead and ask. If you have complaints... try to stay polite... perhaps trying to resolve by asking questions and try to work out some equitable OOC agreement to a reasonable resolution to the RP. If that doesn't work, you'll probably have to grin and bear it until you can talk to a DM. Don't go nuts OOC, this is the path to being banned.

Updated, went through and added to various parts, added new parts. Revisions should show what changed for those who don't know.

I agree to the points of the above on the IC and OOC, but I think that there should be some form of middle ground.

Example: Once long ago I played an elf, she got into an argument because she was fresh off the mainland and did'nt like drow and stated so. I ended in jail together with another character who felt the same way as me.

While this is'nt bad in itself, the bad thing I felt was how it was conducted. In the end I was expected to sit and stare at my screen for a couple of hours, thats just not good enough when its an IC crime, the other lawbreaker was'nt even allowed to sit in the neighbouring cell.

Where is the corrupt guard abusing prisenors? The prison sex, all the fun stuff? Can't we make some seriously IC degrading punishments that the player will love that fits in the theme? I know some of the above examples may fit more in Kortuga but the point is not so much in the examples, as in allowing the IC punishments to be OOC fun.

Offcourse, the IC and OOC part above posted by Bar still applies regardless.

Also, I disagree that crimes comitted are "forced" on the guards, no one forces a guard to play a guard. If you choose to become a guard then you choose to deal with criminals. This may be a headache IC, but its your choice as a guard.

The thing it never should be, is a headache OOC.

I think Nathra is on to somethng here. I mean why are there so many prison exploitation films if there is not some interest in that type of RP. Maybe there could be a public announcement when someone is thrown in jail, thus increasing the odds that somebody less respectful then the guards might show up to "punish" the prisoner. Perhaps a long term inmate who does not leave the prison but is activated when company arrives. I agree it would be more likely in Kortuga, but even Sharessia could have some holes in the underbelly of the keep.

A nice twist might be an escpae tunnel in the cell that only a strong search score indentifies, it could be a portal to random places. One day it drops you off on the docks, the next in the tomb. I know it doesn't really make that much sense considering the geography, but I am sure the arcanist guild can come up with some explanation on how a tunnel can reach anoher island. Just some thoughts.

Nathra and Itiita Cimm, you are completely missing the point and going off on the "wow lets go in a completely different direction!"

Fine. You two go create a server that's based on rewarding people that want to be a pain in the ass. You'll find out quickly that it gets out of hand quick. (Although I suppose if it's a specialty server and everyone is there for that, might even work.)

On the other hand you can go back and read this and the related forums. The RP you guys are talking about is fine, as long as you work on it from a cooperative story telling perspective. Involve the other players including the guards (who may or may not be in the mood to deal with it at that moment, that's their choice).

Otherwise, if you just run around being a pain so you can experience some fun, like a willful child who wants some attention, don't expect to be rewarded.

And Nathra, if that was your first act on a new server, well shame on you. You deserved to sit in a cell for a while for running into a new place and creating a ruckus before understanding how that community worked.

- Bar

Well first of all I feel it takes pointing out, Not everyone is cynical and trying to ruin other people's fun or all that jazz. We realize this. The guards realize it, the staff realize it. That's why that section was covered. If you want to have fun it takes organization. Talk to the guard. Find something "punishing" that you would like.

Jail isn't fun. It isn't fun in real life. It's not meant to be. However, adapting to "Fun" punishment for random crime presents a problem. You have people (And I have seen quite a few before you say anything) who will have a run in with the guard. These people will sit there and be arrogant bastards and cause a ruckus even after they've been caught. They'll be flippant... and they'll wind up in trouble. Then they'll go OOC and bitch when the guard sticks them in a cell. (Yes it's not very fun and they think that, we know this. Doesn't give them the right to treat the guard like an ass, but that's not the point.)

After they get out? They go right back at it. They don't learn. They don't learn ICly. They don't learn oocly. They get threatened with heavier sentences, even death, yet they continue. Then when those sentences ensue, what do they do? They bitch.

Now on top of that you want the punishment to be fun? So what.... we could encourage them to do it....more? That's what Mithuth is there for. If ya like crime go there. Sounds a bit hard but that's how it is. We're not against it by any means but I can't really forsee making it fun for rp that's sometimes viewed as disruptive. But that's what the whole organized/unorganized crime section is for.

And to be honest people, As mentioned above, if you honestly expect the guards to all love sitting there dealing with people who have a tendancy to more often than not complain, even well before a punishment is issued, you're going to have a very small to non-existent guard force. That's just simple fact. Very few people her actually enjoy people ooc bitching at them. And without guards what are we left to do? Let crime go rampant? Or simply make it against server rules all together? Fairly sure you're not going to enjoy that.

And finally... Twere Ren on duty.... Sex simply would not be what you're lawbreaking asses would be in for Ren would be more prone to breaking their bones than fucking them. Simply cause that's how Ren is XD. Soooo yeah she doesn't do that... though... I do think I'd enjoy a proper interrogating session ^^.

Anyway that's just my thoughts on that.

Wow, creating a new server and griefing the guards is not exactly what I had in mind. Nor was I suggesting we toss the current system. I merely read Nathra's comment and liked the potential for in prison RP.

That being said, I have been playing the server for several months and have yet to have a run in with a guard, nor have I ended up in jail. Wasn't really trying to suggest that Haven should be a lawless free for all, I actually like it just the way it is.

Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression.

Eh Bar? I think you might miss my point entirely here. Honestly, you are taking my words a tad too aggresively.

My point was that the cooporative storytelling element was missing in my experience there in the past, it was not my first act nor was my character in the situation the one who made the worst. She for example never pulled out any weapons, she never threathened to spill blood or any other excessive things.

The irony in that situation is that there came a drow along who did all of those things without being dealth with at all, including casting several defensive buffs in preperation for combat, and I honestly think that the cooporative RP could have been stressed more in that situation.

So with all due respect, I am not missing the point at all, I do not want to give people who have no respect for IC consequences, when I did the act back then it was with full knowledge that I might be jailed, my point here is that the way it happened was disappointing and has led me to avoid any conflict while in Sharessia.

The issue with this is that if all IC criminals run off like that, then the guards are left with dealing with the asshats only.

EDIT:
To be perfectly clear: I would like to have more IC crimes that can be fun for the guards with cooporative RP, and less of an expectancy that the player, per defaulth, is going to be a troublemaker. Because honestly? If that is the stance that the player will meet then there are two courses, either the player like me will just avoid anything remotly criminal while in Sharessia or the player will turn OOC.
Neither are good solutions I find.

@Itiita Cimm:
I do not think that there should be a way to escape the prisons, it will sadly just be abused. Its better to RP that with the guards, if they are willing. Because some players can and will exploit bugs to get away.

@Renn:
Torture/harsh interrogation is fine too for me, anything other than sitting in a cell staring at a screen for a minor IC incident. Back when I experienced it the comment was when I asked the guard
"Sorry, this is the rules. I cannot do so. You have to be there X hours." there was no option for cooporative RP there.

This is where you continue to utterly miss the point. You unilaterally initiated the RP, and then complain there was no option to make it cooperative. Once you've gotten that far, yes your are going to be spending some time in the cells. Cooperative RP is going to be hit and miss at this point, since you've not entered into it cooperatively. Maybe the responding officer might be up for it, but they aren't really supposed to allow rabble-rousing to turn into fun time, because that's a bad incentive structure. The time to do cooperative RP is to find a guard that's interested in doing such play ahead of time.

Acting out once captured can make things worse of course, just FYI. There is no requirement, however, for staying logged in during the sentence, relogging into another char for the duration and perhaps keeping in contact with the guard to be released (or interviewed if necessary) is perfectly acceptable.

This is all an important part of keeping Sharessia as a relatively peaceful city, and Haven server as a place to go where you can RP without being harassed. We've been quite successful with it. It works, in spite of being a pain to some at times.

Also notable, your argument about guard RP not being forced because no one is forced to play a guard is invalid. Akin to playing a slave and having no option to redflag what is being done to you, and not being permitted to log out. That's just not the way we play here.

Hmm, good analogy of the slave. I did not think of that one. Thank you.

Loc, I am confused by the IC and OOC of this:



I certainly think admitting the IC OOCly is important. Few things piss me off more than lyingly OOCly about what happened ICly, as it tends to make me waste a ton of time trying to figure out what really happened. That takes IC crimes into OOC territory, but not sure it's necessary to insist that characters confess ICly. Are you saying that here?

- Bar

I'm more referrring to the whole situation that we commonly run into where they are committing crimes in public places like for example Sunbright. They talk in local, get caught, then decide they don't like the results so they try to redlight the results or sometimes the entire crime. ICly yes obviously the criminal wouldn't own up to it XD. Though I suppose the whole lying OOCly thing would be a thing to consider too.

To avoid confusion, the "Militia" does not exist anymore. It has been restructured and renamed, and is now the "Kortuga Watch", which includes Miltia and Inquisition in one package.

Also, please to NOT refer to Kortuga as a Pirate Town, it really no longer is. Pirates are being hunted for endagering the local trade even. Pirate town would indicate Chaotic Evil, Kortuga is, now even under Zhent rule inofficially, lawful evil. It's many "old" Kortugans who use this term still, and mourn the loss of chaos, but the "new" Kortugans, and the most active ones really too, don't support the notion of being a Pirate town.

And lastly, probably a typo, but it's Loviatar

quit cha whining and provide meh with something useful