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Wed, 2011-11-30 10:47
It has been discussed several times and i wanted to see if we can't post it in an easier found place. One DM a while back stated that it was now Illeagel for ANYONE whom does not have at least 1 level of RRed Wizard class to wear the Red Wizard Robes (this inclused bleaches wizard robes dyed red). Its been ignored by several people and causeing some unneeded drama. Can a DM please verify this rule and post it for all to see? I've written to Bar about it over a month ago and still nothing was done to my knwolage. In my openion its a form of greiveing and the relations between the Kortugan Enclave and the Sharessa hierarcky would come inot question here. The Gaurds sould be upholding the treaty and not alowing persons to galavant in robes clearly mocking Thayan traditions.
Fri, 2011-12-02 05:14
#1
As far as I know, there's no IC laws revolving that particular subject. Red is red, no matter the style. However, if a non thayan goes around posing as a red wizard that may have IC repercussions like charges of fraud, but that's about all I can deduce from the matter.
Fri, 2011-12-02 15:06
#2
I have spoken to bar about this directly (though IC as Telron) And he has said that no, it is NOT illegal for people to wear red wizard robes. There used to be a treaty some time ago written by Gelle(Sugarcandy) which included that no one but reds may wear Red robes, but that particular clause was stricken from the treaty some time ago. That being said I do believe one particular style of robe was removed from the general public use and reserved for the Thayans, I don't remember what particularly came of that as I've not followed the subject closely, but afaik anything considered of "Thayan" style, that is still obtainable to the general public is not illegal for them to wear.
Fri, 2011-12-02 15:12
#3
The robes are craftable by anyone with tailoring, and you can wear whatever color you like. Sorry, dear, but you're wrong, and just trying to create more drama over the Thayans. Stop it.
Sat, 2011-12-03 08:51
#4
Foxy is correct about KEMO's ruling.
Here is the link: http://z6.invisionfree.com/Haven_Forums/index.php?showtopic=10240
It is true that Telron will not ICly enforce this and it is also true that this part of Gelle's treaty was removed IC. That was both before KEMO's ruling though!
I asked Barfubaz to post his final ruling to this thread.
@Rayne: Sorry, dear, but you're wrong, and just trying to create more drama over the Thayans. Stop it.
Here is the link: http://z6.invisionfree.com/Haven_Forums/index.php?showtopic=10240
KEMO wrote:
It was a mistake to permit the Red Wizard Robe to be available via the tailors. IC that robe is only available to red wizards, and the only official red wizards on the server are those who have taken the PrC. Permitting anyone to wear the robes detracts from the RP experience of gaining the PrC.
The variant will be removed from the tailors. If your character is wearing the robes and does not have the PrC, you can expect IC confrontation from true Red Wizards.
It is true that Telron will not ICly enforce this and it is also true that this part of Gelle's treaty was removed IC. That was both before KEMO's ruling though!
I asked Barfubaz to post his final ruling to this thread.
@Rayne: Sorry, dear, but you're wrong, and just trying to create more drama over the Thayans. Stop it.
Sat, 2011-12-03 09:13
#5
The red robes are still available in the tailors for some races though, for the princely some of 1 gold.
However, they are races such as Dwarf and Orc, and as such could never be confused for being 'red wizards' as they races that are not permitted to be part of the order
(and I think the original post came about due to a dwarf being seen wearing them in Sharessia)
However, they are races such as Dwarf and Orc, and as such could never be confused for being 'red wizards' as they races that are not permitted to be part of the order
(and I think the original post came about due to a dwarf being seen wearing them in Sharessia)
Sat, 2011-12-03 09:34
#6
Yes, that's a bug. Also drow can make red wizard robes with Myrin. KEMO wanted to remove them for all but somehow it didn't work out.
If you read further down the linked post, she added the bleached version so people could use the style with different colors. It was not her intention to have players dye them red.
If you read further down the linked post, she added the bleached version so people could use the style with different colors. It was not her intention to have players dye them red.
Sat, 2011-12-03 09:36
#7
Quote:
The Gaurds sould be upholding the treaty and not alowing persons to galavant in robes clearly mocking Thayan traditions.
Actually this part is wrong. The guards don't have to care about that.
Sat, 2011-12-03 10:31
#8
shairin wrote:
Quote:The Gaurds sould be upholding the treaty and not alowing persons to galavant in robes clearly mocking Thayan traditions.
Actually this part is wrong. The guards don't have to care about that.
Unless of course that person is posing intentionally as a red wizard without being one. That would be a case of fraud. >.>
Sat, 2011-12-03 12:20
#9
Still, the guards in Sharessia don't have a law again "fraud". As far as I know there isn't even a law against pretending to be a sharessian guard. But correct me if I'm wrong.
Sat, 2011-12-03 12:36
#10
90% of the people wearing them as red are actively trying to cause problems for Thayans, thats why i stated that about the guards. People like to do this sort of thing just to mock the Thayan way and causeing us alot of headacks and drama sence they tend to sit in Sharessa and thus "untouchable" by Thayan players.
Rane, i will not "stop it" as you put it, because as Sharin pointed out, it is a rule, i just couldn't locate it, and i asked about this so i could point others to the rule because when i inform people they say "i can't find it, so i don't think its a rule", so i can point this out, and the drama will stop
Rane, i will not "stop it" as you put it, because as Sharin pointed out, it is a rule, i just couldn't locate it, and i asked about this so i could point others to the rule because when i inform people they say "i can't find it, so i don't think its a rule", so i can point this out, and the drama will stop
Sat, 2011-12-03 13:10
#11
Rennia Trayvold wrote:
I have spoken to bar about this directly (though IC as Telron) And he has said that no, it is NOT illegal for people to wear red wizard robes. There used to be a treaty some time ago written by Gelle(Sugarcandy) which included that no one but reds may wear Red robes, but that particular clause was stricken from the treaty some time ago. --That being said I do believe one particular style of robe was removed from the general public use and reserved for the Thayans, I don't remember what particularly came of that as I've not followed the subject closely, but afaik anything considered of "Thayan" style, that is still obtainable to the general public is not illegal for them to wear.--
I do believe I pointed that out Shairin, and you can stop feeding the trolls.
Rayne's not creating drama, Foxy is. This is the upteenth millionth time she's had a problem with something and blamed someone ELSE as the source of drama. As you yourself stated, it's not the guard's prerogative to babysit people and hold their hands, yet she for some reason believes it is. As it's been stated, however, the outfit is unavailable to the general public, though alternate variants are. Reds can enforce their own rules within the enclave, but outside the rules are that of the hosts, and the Thayans are a guest. They were ALLOWED to have property by Telron. However, I do believe you are incorrect in the impersonation part, though I again am not sure on that. I do know however that it's not illegal to copy the outfits of every other guild in the server so I dun see Reds being a special case . That being said, the only way to obtain a "thayan" robe is to get it from a Thayan PRC or a bug. And if either one of those happens, well then I believe you've got bigger problems than someone with an issue of a person ICly acting like a Thayan . Sorry, but being childish is annoying, especially when one is defending the troll.
Sat, 2011-12-03 15:33
#12
@Rennia: How do you explain KEMO's post?
Sat, 2011-12-03 18:06
#13
shairin wrote:
@Rayne: Sorry, dear, but you're wrong, and just trying to create more drama over the Thayans. Stop it.
Now who's causing drama again?
Sun, 2011-12-04 04:17
#14
Maybe I wasn't explicit enough.
Foxy's request is valid. That post from KEMO exists and Foxy didn't make it all up to start drama.
Now since Telron's (IC) ruling seems to conflict with KEMO's OOC ruling I will have Barfubaz have the final say on this.
Until then KEMO's rule applies. You're allowed to wear generally red clothes and you are allowed to wear the bleached red wizard robe. However, taking a the bleached robe and dye them red is a way of circumventing KEMO's ruling.
Redflagging interaction with red wizards while wearing a red wizard's robe is considered ass-hattery by me.
Foxy's request is valid. That post from KEMO exists and Foxy didn't make it all up to start drama.
Now since Telron's (IC) ruling seems to conflict with KEMO's OOC ruling I will have Barfubaz have the final say on this.
Until then KEMO's rule applies. You're allowed to wear generally red clothes and you are allowed to wear the bleached red wizard robe. However, taking a the bleached robe and dye them red is a way of circumventing KEMO's ruling.
Redflagging interaction with red wizards while wearing a red wizard's robe is considered ass-hattery by me.
Sun, 2011-12-04 04:34
#15
Just so long as they're not trying to push over excessive RP onto the poor sod, which, let's admit.... they do tend to do. I mean if he's claiming to be a Red Wizard that's one thing... but threatening someone with death for wearing robes (Which before you say anything, I have seen!) is kinda excessive, dun ya think?
Sun, 2011-12-04 04:58
#16
It is not excessive as long as it happens ICly. OOC arguments and threats, that is excessive. Enforcing an IC law is not. Just because Char A threatens Char B with death doesn't mean it will happen too. Perma death can't happen without DM ruling or player consent. Doesn't mean that they should not be ICly afraid of serious consequences.
You can play a Char who is a real jerk ICly without being one OOCly. The drama only happens if you get OOCly offended by an IC behavior. Trying to redlight IC threatening just to take the piss out of someone OOCly so you can have your cake and do whatever you want even if the IC or OOC rules say no, that's, as Sharin pointed out, ass hatery. And that is what the OP is trying to prevent here as I see it.
You can play a Char who is a real jerk ICly without being one OOCly. The drama only happens if you get OOCly offended by an IC behavior. Trying to redlight IC threatening just to take the piss out of someone OOCly so you can have your cake and do whatever you want even if the IC or OOC rules say no, that's, as Sharin pointed out, ass hatery. And that is what the OP is trying to prevent here as I see it.
Sun, 2011-12-04 05:05
#17
This can't be simply answered out of context.
Accidentally wearing a red robe won't get you killed, even if you enter the enclave. It happened a few days ago, a friendly warning and nothing more happened.
If you do it repeatedly for the sole purpose to mock and provoke then you're not a "poor sod" anymore.
You know that IC actions have IC consequences. But that goes both ways. Just "killing" a random person for wearing a red robe won't be without consequences either. The server has clear rules about what you are allowed to do and what not. That applies to all!
Accidentally wearing a red robe won't get you killed, even if you enter the enclave. It happened a few days ago, a friendly warning and nothing more happened.
If you do it repeatedly for the sole purpose to mock and provoke then you're not a "poor sod" anymore.
You know that IC actions have IC consequences. But that goes both ways. Just "killing" a random person for wearing a red robe won't be without consequences either. The server has clear rules about what you are allowed to do and what not. That applies to all!
Sun, 2011-12-04 08:04
#18
I know of one case, where wearing the Red Robe, while not a Thayan, likely kept a character from being killed. 
Sun, 2011-12-04 15:39
#19
As I said, I've seen it happen, In Sharessia. A new player (Who unsurprisingly doesn't play here anymore after the way they got treated in this situation and a few times after it) Got threatened with death by a Thayan. It wasn't a repeat case (especially given the fact the Thayan clearly didn't know the person) and the person wasn't even giving the Thayan any grief until the Thayan turned into an asshat, and then at that point I wouldn't do what he asked either. The person of course later removed the robes to avoid further drama, but the point stands, and it's not alone. I think that's excessive, even IC Dragon. Which there are rules about. Even temp death is considered excessive if the person doing the wearing is not intentionally antagonizing the other party.
So I disagree with the saying it won't get you killed. What you should say is it shouldn't. Only reason it didn't in this case was likely the person got the hint when I told them I'd turn them into a pin cushion if he laid a finger on the person. (Which did generate an OOC remark I found considerably rude, but as neither player is here anymore It's not something that bothered me.)
So I disagree with the saying it won't get you killed. What you should say is it shouldn't. Only reason it didn't in this case was likely the person got the hint when I told them I'd turn them into a pin cushion if he laid a finger on the person. (Which did generate an OOC remark I found considerably rude, but as neither player is here anymore It's not something that bothered me.)
Mon, 2011-12-05 14:51
#20
Thank you Sharin for the help once more. I will say this though, as my closeing remark. In the past i have thretned people ICly on my red wiazard for wearing red robes, and once or twice on my slaves. The slaves were punished pretty savierly for speaking out of turn and nothing realy happened to my Red Wizards who've done it as its more or less kinda exspected of them in some fassion. If a person left the server over an IC action or thret, thats their choice. It happens, and i'm sorry for it, but chances are they had a habbit of turning IC actions to ooc drama and we likely didn't need that anyways. If it was ooc drama that caused them to leave, sadly this happens all too often as well and i'm trying to avoid such things these days by keeping IC things IC.
It short, i'm not atempting to cause drama, i asked where the rule was posted because i knew it was out there, and it was so i'm considering this case dropped and going back to enjoying my RP. Have fun debateing at lemngth over this issue if you choose but i'm not going to take anymore part in it.
I will state hoever i think its uncalled for calling people "trolls"
It short, i'm not atempting to cause drama, i asked where the rule was posted because i knew it was out there, and it was so i'm considering this case dropped and going back to enjoying my RP. Have fun debateing at lemngth over this issue if you choose but i'm not going to take anymore part in it.
I will state hoever i think its uncalled for calling people "trolls"
Mon, 2011-12-05 19:51
#21
Now open: Mordavian's Patent Office
Wed, 2012-02-22 06:18
#22
Who's to say that any style of clothing is theirs, and theirs alone? Just because the official game red wizards use a particular style? Seems incredibly weak to me. As far as I've seen, the color of it can't be altered anyway. It's a cool style, so people want to use it. Don't restrict that; grow up, and get over it.
Wed, 2012-02-22 08:19
#23
recipe of "sewing" : Bleached Red Robe Wizard.
You can die and alter that robe.
You can die and alter that robe.
Wed, 2012-02-22 08:51
#24
There is no OOC server rule against wearing 'The Red.' A concious decision was made years ago to not remove the Thayan style robe from the tailor for this and other reasons.
As far as treatys go, Thayans will do as Thayans desire and if they choose to heckle or assault someone IC for wearing the robes of their order, that's just how the roleplay goes.
Mithuth has no treatys protecting the sanctity of their robes, or defending anyone's right to wear them either.
Kortuga, to the best of my knowledge, has no such treatys either. Kortugan law is geared more heavily toward protecting owned property.
As far as Sharessia is concerned, I'm not certain the treaty Gelle wrote is valid. With that said, assault or extreme verbal abuse in Sharessia of any sort is typically met with punishment by law, so it's a rather moot point.
Hopefully this and Shairin's posts clear this up. Go have fun now.
As far as treatys go, Thayans will do as Thayans desire and if they choose to heckle or assault someone IC for wearing the robes of their order, that's just how the roleplay goes.
Mithuth has no treatys protecting the sanctity of their robes, or defending anyone's right to wear them either.
Kortuga, to the best of my knowledge, has no such treatys either. Kortugan law is geared more heavily toward protecting owned property.
As far as Sharessia is concerned, I'm not certain the treaty Gelle wrote is valid. With that said, assault or extreme verbal abuse in Sharessia of any sort is typically met with punishment by law, so it's a rather moot point.
Hopefully this and Shairin's posts clear this up. Go have fun now.
I didn't create the above image, it's a manip
Wed, 2012-02-22 08:56
#25
As an afterthought, I would suggest people in position to do so research the foreign policies and treaties of their organization/city and create a thread such as this one:
http://www.nwnhaven.com/forums/foreign-policy
http://www.nwnhaven.com/forums/foreign-policy
I didn't create the above image, it's a manip
Thu, 2012-02-23 04:00
#26
This issue did come up in the recent past and I'm not at all sure how it could logically even be an issue.
It's my understanding that a Thayan Enclave is for all intents and purposes an embassy of Thay. Thayan law applies within its grounds alone (which may or may not overrule the host power's laws, but it doesn't seem to be the case in Haven), but it has no political power outside its walls. This would include (but not be limited to) the restriction of wearing red robes, Thayan or otherwise, to Thayan Red Wizards.
I don't want to tell anybody how to roleplay, naturally, but I'd think representatives of Thay would be a bit more mindful of the fact that they do not own all of Faerun and the backlash they'd get for trying to impose their laws where they'd have no business imposing them wouldn't be worth the gain inherant of everybody keeping up with the latest of Thayan fashion.
It's my understanding that a Thayan Enclave is for all intents and purposes an embassy of Thay. Thayan law applies within its grounds alone (which may or may not overrule the host power's laws, but it doesn't seem to be the case in Haven), but it has no political power outside its walls. This would include (but not be limited to) the restriction of wearing red robes, Thayan or otherwise, to Thayan Red Wizards.
I don't want to tell anybody how to roleplay, naturally, but I'd think representatives of Thay would be a bit more mindful of the fact that they do not own all of Faerun and the backlash they'd get for trying to impose their laws where they'd have no business imposing them wouldn't be worth the gain inherant of everybody keeping up with the latest of Thayan fashion.
Thu, 2012-02-23 08:25
#27
((deleted))
Thu, 2012-02-23 12:07
#28
King of the Nighttime World wrote:
This issue did come up in the recent past and I'm not at all sure how it could logically even be an issue.
It's my understanding that a Thayan Enclave is for all intents and purposes an embassy of Thay. Thayan law applies within its grounds alone (which may or may not overrule the host power's laws, but it doesn't seem to be the case in Haven), but it has no political power outside its walls. This would include (but not be limited to) the restriction of wearing red robes, Thayan or otherwise, to Thayan Red Wizards.
I don't want to tell anybody how to roleplay, naturally, but I'd think representatives of Thay would be a bit more mindful of the fact that they do not own all of Faerun and the backlash they'd get for trying to impose their laws where they'd have no business imposing them wouldn't be worth the gain inherant of everybody keeping up with the latest of Thayan fashion.
Going to voice agreement with this. If someone wants to wear a red robe that uses the same graphic as the "Thayan" robes, it's really an IC issue between Thayans and that player. Unless we want to start making IC laws about what people can and cannot wear, in which case I have a whole list of fashion faux pas that we need to start addressing...
On the other hand, if people want to turn it into an OOC clusterfuck, then I guess I'll just lose all hope of IC resolutions to IC problems...
Thu, 2012-02-23 19:32
#29
RayneDancer wrote:
King of the Nighttime World wrote:This issue did come up in the recent past and I'm not at all sure how it could logically even be an issue.
It's my understanding that a Thayan Enclave is for all intents and purposes an embassy of Thay. Thayan law applies within its grounds alone (which may or may not overrule the host power's laws, but it doesn't seem to be the case in Haven), but it has no political power outside its walls. This would include (but not be limited to) the restriction of wearing red robes, Thayan or otherwise, to Thayan Red Wizards.
I don't want to tell anybody how to roleplay, naturally, but I'd think representatives of Thay would be a bit more mindful of the fact that they do not own all of Faerun and the backlash they'd get for trying to impose their laws where they'd have no business imposing them wouldn't be worth the gain inherant of everybody keeping up with the latest of Thayan fashion.
Going to voice agreement with this. If someone wants to wear a red robe that uses the same graphic as the "Thayan" robes, it's really an IC issue between Thayans and that player. Unless we want to start making IC laws about what people can and cannot wear, in which case I have a whole list of fashion faux pas that we need to start addressing...
On the other hand, if people want to turn it into an OOC clusterfuck, then I guess I'll just lose all hope of IC resolutions to IC problems...
This. =)
Fri, 2012-02-24 13:31
#30
It was never a question about IC issues. If you read KEMO's ruling you will notice it is purely OOC.
Infact, she removed it partially from the tailors. Only humans can't create red wizard robes anymore, all other races can (call that an epic fail).
Having a unique red dress that identifies red wizards and make them stand out from the rest is a key element to the RP experience. In the same way that the guard's and other character's uniforms have a unique style that isn't available through Myrin's NPC.
However I see that there is also a facet of the roleplay that people want to pretend to be red wizards or seek conflict with them.
However, please don't wear the "red" coloured red-wizard's robe if you decide not to get involved in any roleplay about that. If you wear a red red-wizard's robe and redflag any interaction with actual red wizards then I will consider that baiting and asshatery.
KEMO (http://z6.invisionfree.com/Haven_Forums/index.php?showtopic=10240) wrote:
It was a mistake to permit the Red Wizard Robe to be available via the tailors. IC that robe is only available to red wizards, and the only official red wizards on the server are those who have taken the PrC. Permitting anyone to wear the robes detracts from the RP experience of gaining the PrC.
The variant will be removed from the tailors. If your character is wearing the robes and does not have the PrC, you can expect IC confrontation from true Red Wizards.
Infact, she removed it partially from the tailors. Only humans can't create red wizard robes anymore, all other races can (call that an epic fail
).Having a unique red dress that identifies red wizards and make them stand out from the rest is a key element to the RP experience. In the same way that the guard's and other character's uniforms have a unique style that isn't available through Myrin's NPC.
However I see that there is also a facet of the roleplay that people want to pretend to be red wizards or seek conflict with them.
However, please don't wear the "red" coloured red-wizard's robe if you decide not to get involved in any roleplay about that. If you wear a red red-wizard's robe and redflag any interaction with actual red wizards then I will consider that baiting and asshatery.
Fri, 2012-02-24 13:57
#31
I do believe that was the original statement from KEMO, but was later revised per what Night said, Shairin.
Regardless, as long as people are having fun with whatever RP comes from it all, that should be all that matters.
Regardless, as long as people are having fun with whatever RP comes from it all, that should be all that matters.
Fri, 2012-02-24 14:39
#32
@Rayne: I'm sure it is fun for some people to play Sharessian servants, dress up in red robes, mock all red wizards and hide behind the crown with their yellow collars. I'm sure many people are having fun being ass haters like that. If the fun is mutual and good RP as it should be, then I agree with you. But if the fun in one sided (e.g. not accepting IC consequences for IC actions) then I will have a word with that player.
As a fact, "the treaty Gelle wrote" is not valid anymore. Telron dropped it.
I'm not aware of anyone altering or dropping KEMO's statement though. If you have more information please provide me a link, Rayne. Until that time though KEMO's ruling is still valid.
As a fact, "the treaty Gelle wrote" is not valid anymore. Telron dropped it.
I'm not aware of anyone altering or dropping KEMO's statement though. If you have more information please provide me a link, Rayne. Until that time though KEMO's ruling is still valid.
Fri, 2012-02-24 16:52
#33
I can't recall any links on it. As far as I was aware, it was a conversation KEMO had with DMs or something? I'm providing that purely as hearsay, in that regard, but what Night said seems to reaffirm what I heard. Obviously, I don't have access to the old DM forums either, if it took place there.
I still think there is a level of maturity people need to exercise in RP, though. If anyone is getting pissed off OOCly about the clothes somewhere wears, this isn't the server for them. If someone taunts another person in any manner, be it with Thayan robes or something else, it should be kept IC if it's meant IC. OOC asshattery should be avoided, of course (though what constitutes OOC asshattery seems to be in question, as we all have differing opinions on some subjects). I still find it a bit ridiculous that anyone would seriously get upset over people wearing a red robe, though. Heck, they can even claim to be a Thayan. There's no rule against players playing as Thayans that aren't part of the Enclave. I think there are even more Thayans outside of the Enclave than in, now. At least, from what I've seen.
Anyway...I guess my point is more or less repeating the same thing I said before, but with a little more detail to why it was said, and why I feel as I do? Something like that.
I still think there is a level of maturity people need to exercise in RP, though. If anyone is getting pissed off OOCly about the clothes somewhere wears, this isn't the server for them. If someone taunts another person in any manner, be it with Thayan robes or something else, it should be kept IC if it's meant IC. OOC asshattery should be avoided, of course (though what constitutes OOC asshattery seems to be in question, as we all have differing opinions on some subjects). I still find it a bit ridiculous that anyone would seriously get upset over people wearing a red robe, though. Heck, they can even claim to be a Thayan. There's no rule against players playing as Thayans that aren't part of the Enclave. I think there are even more Thayans outside of the Enclave than in, now.
At least, from what I've seen.Anyway...I guess my point is more or less repeating the same thing I said before, but with a little more detail to why it was said, and why I feel as I do? Something like that.
Fri, 2012-02-24 19:19
#34
shairin wrote:
I'm not aware of anyone altering or dropping KEMO's statement though. If you have more information please provide me a link, Rayne. Until that time though KEMO's ruling is still valid.
I'm a little concerned about this.
I've read the quote, and it seems based on an opinion, not actual fact, that Red Wizard Robes should be kept exclusive to Red Wizards. I think that refers to the actual item (Red Wizard Robes are class-limited) and not to the style. This of course means that unless one has the Red Wizard prestige class or sufficient ranks in UMD, they can't wear them anyway.
But if the style was not meant to be used according to Haven law, then it should have been removed from the clothing alteration options ASAP, instead of relying on some obscure quote from a source that I understand is no longer involved in NWN2 (let alone Haven) that needed digging up to find.
Otherwise you're going to risk alienating new players with these bait-and-switch ambush tactics.
Fri, 2012-02-24 19:35
#35
Will have to agree that it shouldn't be an issue as long as the person donning the red wizard style robes is willing to deal with the IC backlash. Making it an OOC issue seems abit silly, to me.
Fri, 2012-02-24 19:47
#36
If anything, I think the mistake was that the robes could be tailored at Myrin. They were added into the game as a crafting recipe with no coloring, though, very much on purpose.
I seem to recall the actual "Red Wizard Robes" with quite powerful magical enchantments was, at one point, craftable? I also believe that was the mistake referred to that wasn't intended (and subsequently fixed). The actual item with stats should remain a "perk" of being a Thayan. However, making a bleached robe and coloring it red doesn't seem to be what KEMO intended to be a mistake.
I seem to recall the actual "Red Wizard Robes" with quite powerful magical enchantments was, at one point, craftable? I also believe that was the mistake referred to that wasn't intended (and subsequently fixed). The actual item with stats should remain a "perk" of being a Thayan. However, making a bleached robe and coloring it red doesn't seem to be what KEMO intended to be a mistake.
Fri, 2012-02-24 20:13
#37
RayneDancer wrote:
If anything, I think the mistake was that the robes could be tailored at Myrin. They were added into the game as a crafting recipe with no coloring, though, very much on purpose.
As it stands, it still is listed as a KEMO clothing enchantment, though it requires a specific "recipe." I had assumed that this recipe was available only at the Enclave and kept limited to the leadership of the Thayans, though had no personal interest in delving deeper on it.
Regardless if it was a mistake or not, I'd hope people liking the style for the style would be given the benefit of the doubt; otherwise it's basically saying "Yes, we offer the Red Wizard style - don't use it." It's a contradictory message, and getting harrassed / assaulted for it just pours salt on a wound they can't rightfully be blamed for.
Fri, 2012-02-24 22:08
#38
If a player is role playing wearing Red Wizards robes directly to agitate the enclave, I say let them deal with the IC consequences to their actions.
Cora wore a light blue alteration of the Bleached wizard robes, though I role played it as more of a "fitting" greatcoat. Its a unique good looking styled robe and its not hard to forget that the way you see the character model might not be 100% exactly how such things are observed by our characters through RP.
Cora wore a light blue alteration of the Bleached wizard robes, though I role played it as more of a "fitting" greatcoat. Its a unique good looking styled robe and its not hard to forget that the way you see the character model might not be 100% exactly how such things are observed by our characters through RP.
Sat, 2012-02-25 02:03
#39
Quote:
As far as I was aware, it was a conversation KEMO had with DMs or something
I wonder how you know what KEMO discusses with DMs. I am a DM and I don't know anything about it.
Quote:
There's no rule against players playing as Thayans that aren't part of the Enclave.
I never mentioned the enclave. I was always talking about "Red Wizards" and so was KEMO in her post. A red wizard is someone who has the PrC, nothing more, nothing less.
Quote:
This of course means that unless one has the Red Wizard prestige class or sufficient ranks in UMD, they can't wear them anyway.
Same with guard uniform, etc. But you were not supposed to get them IC from the tailor making it a lot harder and an actual RP to somehow get those robes from the black market.
Quote:
it should have been removed from the clothing alteration options ASAP
It was removed from the tailor, however it is broken in a way that only humans (and therefore red wizards) can't make the red wizard's robes which is obviously a bug.
Quote:
If anything, I think the mistake was that the robes could be tailored at Myrin. They were added into the game as a crafting recipe with no coloring, though, very much on purpose.
Yes, that's true. And it's supposed to be available in different colours to all players. But dying them red is just being a smart ass about it
Quote:
I seem to recall the actual "Red Wizard Robes" with quite powerful magical enchantments was, at one point, craftable?
It is still craftable, but hardly any powerful at all! The enchantments are a joke.
And a last time: KEMO's rule was about the red red-wizards robe, not the bleached one. It's fine to walk around with blue, yellow and even pink robes.
Sat, 2012-02-25 07:09
#40
shairin wrote:
But you were not supposed to get them IC from the tailor making it a lot harder and an actual RP to somehow get those robes from the black market.
Again, though, is that explicitly stated in either current IC laws or current OOC policy?
shairin wrote:
It was removed from the tailor, however it is broken in a way that only humans (and therefore red wizards) can't make the red wizard's robes which is obviously a bug.
And this is what I meant by "bait-and-switch." It being a bug is not self-evident in Myrin's, certainly not to newcomers, and certainly not to those less than savvy to Faerunian lore who wouldn't know a Thayan Red Wizard from a Cormyrian War Wizard.
shairin wrote:
Yes, that's true. And it's supposed to be available in different colours to all players. But dying them red is just being a smart ass about it.
Right now, it certainly seems there are characters and even players that are being punished for a developer bug. And while I can appreciate it being impossible to keep anything in NWN2 completely bug-free, it still seems to me the best course is to just acknowledge that a character or player cannot be blamed for utilizing a resource that is made available (however erroneously), and not to assume everybody that takes the bleached robes and make them red are doing it just to thumb their noses at the Red Wizards.
Otherwise, by that same token, it's not far-fetched for players to assume the bug remains there to get characters and players into unasked-for trouble.
Sat, 2012-02-25 14:25
#41
Quote:
Asking. I wonder how you know what KEMO discusses with DMs. I am a DM and I don't know anything about it.
But that doesn't entirely apply to this conversation. I could be remembering it wrong after this much time has passed, though I believe my memory to be mostly on track...(See bottom of post)Quote:
They were added as a bleached color so players could dye them whatever color they wanted. You cannot dye the normal Red Wizard robes any other color than red. The bleached robes are a special model that is color-able. Logic dictates that it's always been intended that you could make them whatever color you wanted. Yes, that's true. And it's supposed to be available in different colours to all players. But dying them red is just being a smart ass about it
Quote:
Same as above response.And a last time: KEMO's rule was about the red red-wizards robe, not the bleached one. It's fine to walk around with blue, yellow and even pink robes.
Probably best we stop trying to read into the meaning of KEMO's post, though. The only one that can really say which side is correct in the interpretation is KEMO, and she's probably not going to cameo appearance to tell us.
In the meantime, Night provided us an answer several posts up that should have, for all intents and purposes, been the end of the thread. 
Sun, 2012-02-26 15:26
#42
Quote:
Right now, it certainly seems there are characters and even players that are being punished for a developer bug.
Name one player that got / is "punished". I can think of none. As I said earlier, even walking with a red wizard's robe into the enclave won't get you killed. You might get an unfriendly welcome and be told to take the robe off or leave immediately, but that's about it.
Most players in the enclave play evil characters but are rather understanding on the OOC level and won't force anyone into a RP they don't like. A simple OOC tell goes a long way. It's the same as running around with a drawn blade in Sharessia.
RayneDancer wrote:
Logic dictates that it's always been intended that you could make them whatever color you wanted.
Fascinating... Your logic is flawed because it doesn't consider all variables. It was simply too much work to change myrin's coloring scripts just for one style of clothes.
I agree partially about closing the thread. On one hand it should remain open because it's clearly not a solved issue. On the other hand, maybe it should be decided by the DMs.
I think it's better to leave the thread open for now.
Sun, 2012-02-26 21:10
#43
Quote:
Fascinating... Your logic is flawed because it doesn't consider all variables. It was simply too much work to change myrin's coloring scripts just for one style of clothes.
I agree partially about closing the thread. On one hand it should remain open because it's clearly not a solved issue. On the other hand, maybe it should be decided by the DMs.
I think it's better to leave the thread open for now.
I don't even think we're on the same page with the argument now, because if what I said seems illogical I'm only left to believe we're not talking about the same thing anymore.
Sun, 2012-02-26 22:05
#44
shairin wrote:
Name one player that got / is "punished". I can think of none.
Perhaps I misspoke - perhaps "held accountable" would be a better word than "punished." But as you wish - this was posted in this same thread back in 12/4/11:
Rennia Trayvold wrote:
As I said, I've seen it happen, In Sharessia. A new player (Who unsurprisingly doesn't play here anymore after the way they got treated in this situation and a few times after it) Got threatened with death by a Thayan. It wasn't a repeat case (especially given the fact the Thayan clearly didn't know the person) and the person wasn't even giving the Thayan any grief until the Thayan turned into an asshat, and then at that point I wouldn't do what he asked either. The person of course later removed the robes to avoid further drama, but the point stands, and it's not alone.)
I also remember hearing of an incident where a person was harrassed for wearing red-colored robes (not even the Red Wizard Robes from what I understand), though I cannot claim to have personally witnessed this, and this may have well been the same thing.
Either way I stand by my sentiment - there's obviously confusion and miscommunication both in what really was / is the rule, and how it was supposed to be applied. And I think a lot of it has to do with the rules not being clear or obvious - the links so far in this thread lead to sites I couldn't access, which is "double secret probation" stuff right out of Animal House.
But "keeping it IC" only goes so far if these incidents lead to chasing player(s) away from the server after all they did was utilize an option made available to them. If that did happen, I have to seriously question the cost of giving the Thayans one less thing to complain about, either ICly or OOCly.
Mon, 2012-02-27 07:19
#45
Quote:
OOC
Players are considered to have a right to play with being bothered by those they do not like or attempt to interact in an unacceptable fashion. Player interaction can be redflagged.
Fri, 2010-07-23 11:56 | barfubaz
Akin to a safeword. An OOC "Stop!".
Throwing up a redflag, stops IC play and starts an OOC discussion about what is going wrong.
The person throwing a redflag is communicating that they are not comfortable continuing the line of roleplay.
Haven has a rule of "no forced rp". Meaning you are not expected to sit there and endure things that you aren't enjoying. We are here to have fun. Good RP does mean trying to work with what others are doing, so we do encourage trying to work with what you get, but you may redflag RP that is destroying your will to play.
Also used to indicate some form of communication is no longer acceptable.
If one finds themselves unable to tolerate another player, they may redflag all further communication and anything more is considered harassment.
If I understand the redlight rule well, this is one of those cases you should apply it. Most these days sem to redflag the whole person,. but you can also redflag specific rp, such as the above example.
If the person left after once incident of harassment, without trying to get ANY help from a dm, then they have a deeper issue. I am not unsympathetic to their issue, but its still there. They would have left for another reason if not this one.
As for people using the red robes to harass,I remember a year ago where someone put on red robes and an helmet and began harassing one of my toons, and the rest of the rd wizards fro that matter. I was so busy trying to keep it ic I did not think to redflag that specific rp. People do misuse the ability to color those robes red.
Mon, 2012-02-27 10:25
#46
I can see Sharin's point. They are long time players that have seen some serious asshattery. I can also see the King's point that newer players will be victimized by such rules. I have been playing for nearly a year now and I would still put myself into the newer player group. There are a lot of unwritten rules on this server, and some of the written ones are very nuanced or unclear as well.
The established players seem to think that when a newer player runs afoul of these unwritten or unclear rules that fellow established players will be mature and decent in correcting the newbie. Sometimes that is the case. Sometimes it is not the case. When it is not the case it is not the first instinct of a newbie to take a screen shot and take it to the DMs. People don't think things through well when they are shocked and angry, and most newbies I think feel that the DMs will always side with their established players/friends over them.
That said I am sure the established players have many stories of newbies being complete jerks and trying to get out of asshattery by claiming they did not know that rule or whatever.
I admit I was confused about the rule(s) regarding the red wizard robes for a number of months, and still am to some degree. A confounding issue seems to be the human tendency to revel in having knowledge others don't have, and using that knowledge to one-up the other person. No set of server rules can eliminate that kind of asshattery.
Given the confusion around the issue I would defer to protecting the newbie's position, but as I place myself in that group I might be biased.
There is perhaps another solution. This is not the most elegant approach, but hopefully it would provide some clarity and some measure of resolution to both sides. Is it possible to place a sign in the tailors, or have the tailors themselves warn people to not color the bleached robes red? I know absolutely nothing about creating/modifying/ect a NWN2 world, but placing some text would seem to be an easier fix than editting the tailoring as a whole.
Maybe also include an OOC note about the 'creating a red wizard robe' bug in the crafting areas and the fact that exploiting a bug is a serious offence on the server.
The established players seem to think that when a newer player runs afoul of these unwritten or unclear rules that fellow established players will be mature and decent in correcting the newbie. Sometimes that is the case. Sometimes it is not the case. When it is not the case it is not the first instinct of a newbie to take a screen shot and take it to the DMs. People don't think things through well when they are shocked and angry, and most newbies I think feel that the DMs will always side with their established players/friends over them.
That said I am sure the established players have many stories of newbies being complete jerks and trying to get out of asshattery by claiming they did not know that rule or whatever.
I admit I was confused about the rule(s) regarding the red wizard robes for a number of months, and still am to some degree. A confounding issue seems to be the human tendency to revel in having knowledge others don't have, and using that knowledge to one-up the other person. No set of server rules can eliminate that kind of asshattery.
Given the confusion around the issue I would defer to protecting the newbie's position, but as I place myself in that group I might be biased.
There is perhaps another solution. This is not the most elegant approach, but hopefully it would provide some clarity and some measure of resolution to both sides. Is it possible to place a sign in the tailors, or have the tailors themselves warn people to not color the bleached robes red? I know absolutely nothing about creating/modifying/ect a NWN2 world, but placing some text would seem to be an easier fix than editting the tailoring as a whole.
Maybe also include an OOC note about the 'creating a red wizard robe' bug in the crafting areas and the fact that exploiting a bug is a serious offence on the server.
Sat, 2012-03-03 03:29
#47
and just so you know, the "Red Wizard Robes" so far that i have seen have the following bonuses
armor: 0
max bex: no limmitation
Weight: 10lbs
Flags/Enchancts: Useable by Humans, Useable by Red Wizards
and thats it...no bonuses to anything what so ever. Of course there might be some other differances on the craftable ones now, but i haven't gotten ahold of any "Red Wizard Blueprints" or what ever its called, to actualy craft them and know for sure. The fact i ha a Red Wizard in the Enclave who was a tailer/sewer and couldn't even make them says valumes
armor: 0
max bex: no limmitation
Weight: 10lbs
Flags/Enchancts: Useable by Humans, Useable by Red Wizards
and thats it...no bonuses to anything what so ever. Of course there might be some other differances on the craftable ones now, but i haven't gotten ahold of any "Red Wizard Blueprints" or what ever its called, to actualy craft them and know for sure. The fact i ha a Red Wizard in the Enclave who was a tailer/sewer and couldn't even make them says valumes
Sat, 2012-03-03 03:45
#48
The craftable red wizard robes:
Regneration+2
Freedom of movement
Only usuable by Red wizards
Regneration+2
Freedom of movement
Only usuable by Red wizards
Sat, 2012-03-03 03:49
#49
well thats nice to know, considering i've have THREE Red Wizards and none of them have ever had any of those enchantments on them
Sun, 2012-03-04 04:09
#50
Alright, after talking with the other DMs we came up with these rules about it:
OOC:
Everyone may wear the red wizard's robe everywhere and in any colour, but you may not red flag any consequences when colouring it red (or anything close to red). If you red flag any red wizard you must stop wearing the red "red wizard's robe" (Unless you have the red wizard PrC yourself).
IC:
You may not wear anything red inside the enclave unless given permission by a red wizard. That's an IC law of the enclave.
Everyone wearing the red-coloured red wizard's robe outside the enclave will receive a warning message IC before anything happens. If the character doesn't comply, the enclave may take actions against that character. Red wizard's are evil after all, so evil they shall do.
It is recommended for red wizards to contact their "victim" OOC first and ask if they are fine with where the RP goes and what their expectations / wishes are to make it fun for both sides.
The IC warning message is supposed to inform the player about the IC implication in case they didn't know and give them a chance to change their RP.
OOC:
Everyone may wear the red wizard's robe everywhere and in any colour, but you may not red flag any consequences when colouring it red (or anything close to red). If you red flag any red wizard you must stop wearing the red "red wizard's robe" (Unless you have the red wizard PrC yourself).
IC:
You may not wear anything red inside the enclave unless given permission by a red wizard. That's an IC law of the enclave.
Everyone wearing the red-coloured red wizard's robe outside the enclave will receive a warning message IC before anything happens. If the character doesn't comply, the enclave may take actions against that character. Red wizard's are evil after all, so evil they shall do.
It is recommended for red wizards to contact their "victim" OOC first and ask if they are fine with where the RP goes and what their expectations / wishes are to make it fun for both sides.
The IC warning message is supposed to inform the player about the IC implication in case they didn't know and give them a chance to change their RP.
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