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Thu, 2010-09-09 18:39
For a start. I love the new crafting system over the NWN2 version, which made no sense, and allowed a single character to be a Master of All Trades, and Jack of None. 
However, all things can be made better, and this is the place to discuss what you do not like about the new system, but more importantly, recommendations on ways to make it better.
Two quote one of my old First Sergeants... Anyone can Bitch and Moan. An Intelligent person will do more, and will find ways to make things better. That is the ultimate goal of this thread.
So, to that means, I would prefer you use the following format:
Problem: Describe in detail what you see as a shortcoming of the current system.
Solutions: Recomendations to make the system better and correct the shortcoming.
When responding to a post, Cut and paste the Problems/Solutions, and then add your recomendations underneath all previous solutions. This will help to keep the thread easy to follow.
I look forward to civil discourse, and cooperative creativity, to make Haven crafting a balanced, effective system to make Haven more enjoyable.
However, all things can be made better, and this is the place to discuss what you do not like about the new system, but more importantly, recommendations on ways to make it better.
Two quote one of my old First Sergeants... Anyone can Bitch and Moan. An Intelligent person will do more, and will find ways to make things better. That is the ultimate goal of this thread.
So, to that means, I would prefer you use the following format:
Problem: Describe in detail what you see as a shortcoming of the current system.
Solutions: Recomendations to make the system better and correct the shortcoming.
When responding to a post, Cut and paste the Problems/Solutions, and then add your recomendations underneath all previous solutions. This will help to keep the thread easy to follow.
I look forward to civil discourse, and cooperative creativity, to make Haven crafting a balanced, effective system to make Haven more enjoyable.
Thu, 2010-09-09 19:05
#1
I will start of this topic with a few posts of my own observations:
Problem: I believe in a world with only 50 people on at any given time, and so many crafts available, that the current design is counter productive, and results in long periods without a required crafter being available for players.
Solution: I would streamline the existing crafts into the following:
Resource Gathering: (Just gathering raw materials for Craftsmen to use)
Fishing
Farming (Combine Gardening and Farming into one)
Herbalism
Prospecting
Physical Crafting:
Alchemy (Combines Alchemy and Poisons)
Armor Smithing (Only Metal Armors and Shields)
Cooking
Jeweler
Tailor (Combines Leatherworking and Sewing)
Tinkering (Combines Engineer, Trap Making
Weapon Smithing (Only Metal Weapons)
Woodworking (Combines Wood Armors, Shields, and Weapons)
Enchanting:
Thaumaturgy (Arcane Scrolls, Wands, and Enhancments)
Theology (Divine Scrolls, Wands, and Enhancements)
This will reduce the total number of crafts possible, by 1/3, from 20 to 14, and would make it more likely a crafter that is needed will be available at any time, for the rest of the population.
Problem: I believe in a world with only 50 people on at any given time, and so many crafts available, that the current design is counter productive, and results in long periods without a required crafter being available for players.
Solution: I would streamline the existing crafts into the following:
Resource Gathering: (Just gathering raw materials for Craftsmen to use)
Fishing
Farming (Combine Gardening and Farming into one)
Herbalism
Prospecting
Physical Crafting:
Alchemy (Combines Alchemy and Poisons)
Armor Smithing (Only Metal Armors and Shields)
Cooking
Jeweler
Tailor (Combines Leatherworking and Sewing)
Tinkering (Combines Engineer, Trap Making
Weapon Smithing (Only Metal Weapons)
Woodworking (Combines Wood Armors, Shields, and Weapons)
Enchanting:
Thaumaturgy (Arcane Scrolls, Wands, and Enhancments)
Theology (Divine Scrolls, Wands, and Enhancements)
This will reduce the total number of crafts possible, by 1/3, from 20 to 14, and would make it more likely a crafter that is needed will be available at any time, for the rest of the population.
Thu, 2010-09-09 19:16
#2
Problem: Materials needed for Magical Crafts, are often needed in number that make getting everything required difficult, if not impossible. Recipes calling for 6 Dinosaur Claws or 6 Drider Silks, things that cannot be gathered with Resource Gathering Crafts, are impossible to get in large enough numbers.
Solution: Redo all recipes that require found only materials (ie. Cannot be gathered by a Resource Gathering Skill), to require a single material, and make the remainder of the value up with Essences and Gems.
In cases where the material can be gathered, the Refined/Wrought (ie Combined) versions of these materials should be used as a significant part of the cost of the end item, with Essences and Gems making up the remainder.
Most finished crafts that have magical effects, except Potions, Poisons and Food, should be made with the Material/Essence/Gem formatted recipes.
Solution: Redo all recipes that require found only materials (ie. Cannot be gathered by a Resource Gathering Skill), to require a single material, and make the remainder of the value up with Essences and Gems.
In cases where the material can be gathered, the Refined/Wrought (ie Combined) versions of these materials should be used as a significant part of the cost of the end item, with Essences and Gems making up the remainder.
Most finished crafts that have magical effects, except Potions, Poisons and Food, should be made with the Material/Essence/Gem formatted recipes.
Thu, 2010-09-09 20:07
#3
Problem: Special Materials and Masterwork versions have little or no use for players to need to purchase them. This results in Armor Smiths, Weapons Smiths and Woodworkers having few customers for their crafts.
Having few customers, means that the resource gatherers have few or no markets for their Ingots, Planks, or herbs. (Exceptions being fishing poles, fish and herbs to cook the fish, and making Pick axes for Prospecting... But that is another topic.)
Solution: First, make it so Masterwork (MW)[Requires a Critical Success in crafting to make] versions of Armor, Shields and Weapons, have a value in the game that makes them desireable. Instead of being capable of 3 Enchantments on a piece or armor, shield or weapon, MW versions would be allowed an extra enchantment, for a total of 4.
Second, make it so Special Material (Mithril, Adamantium, Darksteel, Duskwood, Zalantar, etc) items, when Masterwork (Critical success) have three enchantments in addition to their Specific Bonus: (Some of these are changes to Specific Bonuses, if possible.)
Examples:
Adamantium: Normal: Armor: +2/+3 DR and 2 Enchantment.
Weapon: +2 Magical and 2 Enchantments.
MW: Armor: +3/+5 DR and 3 Enchantments.
+1D6 Magical and 3 Enchantments.
Mithril: Normal: 50% Weight and 3 Enchantments.
MW: 25% Weight and 3 Enchantments.
Darksteel: Normal: Armor: Hide +2 and 2 Enchantments.
Weapon: +2 Shock and 2 Enchantments.
MW: Armor: Hide +5 and 3 Enchantments.
Weapon: +1D6 Shock and 3 Enchantments.
Cold Iron: Normal: Armor: Resist Chaos +2/+3 and 2 Enchants.
Weapon: +3 Axiomatic and 2 Enchantments.
MW: Armor: Resist Chaos +3/+5 and 3 Enchants.
Weapon: +2D6 Axiomatic and 3 Enchantments.
Alch Silver: Normal: Armor: Resist Law +2/+3 and 2 Enchants.
Weapon: +3 Anarchic and 2 Enchantments.
MW: Armor: Resist Law +3/+5 and 3 Enchants.
Weapon: +2D6 Anarchic and 3 Enchantments.
Having few customers, means that the resource gatherers have few or no markets for their Ingots, Planks, or herbs. (Exceptions being fishing poles, fish and herbs to cook the fish, and making Pick axes for Prospecting... But that is another topic.)
Solution: First, make it so Masterwork (MW)[Requires a Critical Success in crafting to make] versions of Armor, Shields and Weapons, have a value in the game that makes them desireable. Instead of being capable of 3 Enchantments on a piece or armor, shield or weapon, MW versions would be allowed an extra enchantment, for a total of 4.
Second, make it so Special Material (Mithril, Adamantium, Darksteel, Duskwood, Zalantar, etc) items, when Masterwork (Critical success) have three enchantments in addition to their Specific Bonus: (Some of these are changes to Specific Bonuses, if possible.)
Examples:
- Note: Armor below equals Light Armor, Medium Armor, Small Shield / Heavy Armor, Large and Tower Shields.
Adamantium: Normal: Armor: +2/+3 DR and 2 Enchantment.
Weapon: +2 Magical and 2 Enchantments.
MW: Armor: +3/+5 DR and 3 Enchantments.
+1D6 Magical and 3 Enchantments.
Mithril: Normal: 50% Weight and 3 Enchantments.
MW: 25% Weight and 3 Enchantments.
Darksteel: Normal: Armor: Hide +2 and 2 Enchantments.
Weapon: +2 Shock and 2 Enchantments.
MW: Armor: Hide +5 and 3 Enchantments.
Weapon: +1D6 Shock and 3 Enchantments.
Cold Iron: Normal: Armor: Resist Chaos +2/+3 and 2 Enchants.
Weapon: +3 Axiomatic and 2 Enchantments.
MW: Armor: Resist Chaos +3/+5 and 3 Enchants.
Weapon: +2D6 Axiomatic and 3 Enchantments.
Alch Silver: Normal: Armor: Resist Law +2/+3 and 2 Enchants.
Weapon: +3 Anarchic and 2 Enchantments.
MW: Armor: Resist Law +3/+5 and 3 Enchants.
Weapon: +2D6 Anarchic and 3 Enchantments.
Fri, 2010-09-10 21:14
#4
Some well thought out ideas...
I am still learning the KEMO system; I enchanted under the old system, and didn't get back to it until recently. I do find the KEMO system a bit counter-intuitive (but magic should be, I suppose)... I do agree about difficult items like dino claws and drider silk and some rare gems that are nearly nonexistent...
As to finding enchanters or crafters, a lot of folk don't know who does what. But a little advertising might help.
I am still learning the KEMO system; I enchanted under the old system, and didn't get back to it until recently. I do find the KEMO system a bit counter-intuitive (but magic should be, I suppose)... I do agree about difficult items like dino claws and drider silk and some rare gems that are nearly nonexistent...
As to finding enchanters or crafters, a lot of folk don't know who does what. But a little advertising might help.
Sat, 2010-09-11 18:37
#5
Problem: Critical Success/ Error. Either you know how to make something or you don't and that determined by skill points.
Solution: Remove them. Standing around for 5 minutes because of a bad roll is annoying. Losing rare/ expencive matterials is infuriating.
Solution: Remove them. Standing around for 5 minutes because of a bad roll is annoying. Losing rare/ expencive matterials is infuriating.
Sun, 2010-09-12 11:06
#6
Deladra wrote:
Problem: Critical Success/ Error. Either you know how to make something or you don't and that determined by skill points.
Solution: Remove them. Standing around for 5 minutes because of a bad roll is annoying. Losing rare/ expencive matterials is infuriating.
Dela, Thanks for the additional input.... We have talked ingame on this topic, but I want to put my input here, so others can comment.. (If and when they come and comment...
)I have two minds on this...
Mind one:
I like the possibility of Critical Successes and Critical Failures as a general rule, but agree the penalty of as loss of materials, often very expensive ones, combined with a 5 or 15 minute lockout of being able to do anything is a bit drastic... Especially when, as you noted in game, some people are lucky to get 1-2 hours to play at any given time.
I like Critical Successes, because I think they allow the possibility of a craftsmen to have a few, very exceptional pieces, and add variety to the game. Additionally, I want them for creation of Masterwork items as the basis for all enchantments. If not an exceptional base piece (Masterwork), magic does not bind, and the end piece is not possible to be a magic item.
Now, regarding Critical Fumbles... I agree the penalties as they are are too drastic. I would suggest instead of a loss of materials and a time penalty when you cannot perform your craft, perhaps a penalty to your crafting skill for a longer period of time is more appropriate.. You are shaken by your failure, and your mind is still thinking about your mistake, and not on the task at hand. Maybe a -1 Penalty for 10 minutes for failures, and a -3 penalty for 30 minutes for critical failures (Natural 18).
Mind Two:
Instead of a roll to succeed or fail, all crafts are set at a Minimum Skill Level setting for you to be able to make them. For instance:
Enchant a weapon to +1, would require a minimum of 10 Skill Level.
Enchant a Weapon to +2, would require a minimum of 13 Skill Level.
Enchant a Weapon to +3, would require a minimum of 16 Skill Level.
Enchant a Weapon to +4, would require a minimum of 18 Skill Level.
Enchant a Weapon to +5, would require a minimum of 20 Skill Level.
To account for Masterwork Items, as the basis for all Magic Items, as I would like to see happen, then these could have similiar minimum Skill Levels, and require a combination of Harvestable and Refined Materials with something only found though adventuring. For instance, a Masterwork Cold Iron Sword could require a Cold Iron Ingot, a Weak Fire Essence, a Fire Agate and a Fire Mephit Corpse. (Total GP value of all these materials would be 470 Gold, but three of the materials can be gathered easily by a low level Prospector).
To make this work, the drops for bosses would have to be changed to account only for materials that are needed by crafters, and cannot be collected by crafters with farming, Fishing, Herbalism and Propspecting skills.
There is a downside to Mind Two... Crafte Material Deflation..
With the huge amount of raw materials Crafters can gather, the need for them is limited by the higher level crafters, which a Critical Success option provides.. When you have to use 12-13 Cold Iron Ingots to get a single Critical Success, you end up using alot more of them, and buying them from the players who are gathering them more often. With a success failure system, you end up making the majority as normal weapons of that type.... Which you should be able to sell to a NPC merchant for export to the mainland, at a minor profit... (Say 10% over cost) which for the above Cold Iron Ingot should be 50% of total value (50 Gold) and which does in fact sell for 55 gold at the merchant in the Inn... Of course, Alchemical Silver does not fit this model, because a Alchemical Silver Sword has no bonus... See the above recommendations on Masterwork weapons for a solution to that problem though.
Sun, 2010-09-12 11:18
#7
Problem: Craft gathering Skills locations are bunched too close together.
Solution: Scatter the locations all over Haven. Instead of a single area having 8 or 10 locations, have every area in Haven have 1 or 2. Areas for mining do not have to be subterranean. Some of the best mining, especially for ores, is surface mining.
Herbalism could have one or two spots in every area, including subterranean, for more obscure mushrooms and mosses.
Fishing is already more spread out, but could be even more spread out... Including places in the Valley of Death, Arena Island, Chauntea's Hold, Hart's Island, etc could be added.
Solution: Scatter the locations all over Haven. Instead of a single area having 8 or 10 locations, have every area in Haven have 1 or 2. Areas for mining do not have to be subterranean. Some of the best mining, especially for ores, is surface mining.
Herbalism could have one or two spots in every area, including subterranean, for more obscure mushrooms and mosses.
Fishing is already more spread out, but could be even more spread out... Including places in the Valley of Death, Arena Island, Chauntea's Hold, Hart's Island, etc could be added.
Sun, 2010-09-12 11:28
#8
Problem: Many of the materials gathered through the Crafting Skills, and through adventuring, have no uses in the game, and thus no marketability.
Solution: Reduce the number of items that Crafters can gather,reduce the number that are found through adventuring, and expand the recipes to include more of the materials from these reduced lists.
Example: Herbalism has almost 20 Herbs that can be collected, yet only 5 or 6 of them have any uses, and of these, one is used in damn near everything... Basil... Cooking fish accounting for the majority of these. Simply reducing the number of fish to 6 species, and spreading the herbs so each fish recipe has a different herb would help..
Solution: Reduce the number of items that Crafters can gather,reduce the number that are found through adventuring, and expand the recipes to include more of the materials from these reduced lists.
Example: Herbalism has almost 20 Herbs that can be collected, yet only 5 or 6 of them have any uses, and of these, one is used in damn near everything... Basil... Cooking fish accounting for the majority of these. Simply reducing the number of fish to 6 species, and spreading the herbs so each fish recipe has a different herb would help..
Sun, 2010-09-12 21:22
#9
My wife brought this thread to my attention, and I decided to come out of retirement to make a few comments.
My crafting system (that is, the mechanics of the skill rolls, skill set, etc.) is based 100% on GURPS. (The recipes and the distribution of craftable items and required components are not based on GURPS as such, however.) I did this on purpose, and I consider the crafting system to be my NWN2 masterpiece.
Any changes made to the number and type of skills used, any change to the mechanics of the skill rolls (including critical failures), any changes to the system design as such, will make the crafting system not 100% GURPS, and it will make the system deviate from what I intended. To be sure, KEMO Crafting no longer belongs to me; I have given it to Bar to do with as he pleases. That being said, if any changes are made to the crafting system that move it away from a GURPS base, I request that my name, my initials, be removed from the system. I request that it be made clear that I do not authorize the changes. As I said, I consider the secondary skills system to be my scripting masterpiece. I am more proud of it than I am of anything else I created for Haven, including the animations. It took me the better part of a year to design the crafting system, and my departure from NWN2 shortly after finishing the last piece (prospecting) was not coincidental.
To be specific, changes to the system that would result in my "disowning" the system include the following posts above:
Reply 1 (changing the skill list)
Reply 5 (removing critical failures - this criticism is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the system: it is *not* D&D, and success and failure are not absolutes: even master craftsmen can accidentally spill things on their workbenches)
Reply 6 part 2 (recipe skill thresholds - that's D&D, and I intentionally designed away from that)
Changes to the system that I think would be beneficial and are worth looking into - and would not fundamentally alter what I designed - include:
Reply 2 (fixing the recipe requirements to be less annoying)
Reply 3 (altering the items involved in critical successes, etc.)
Reply 6 part 1 (changing the effects of critical failures)
Reply 7 (adding/shifting gather-skill locations)
Reply 8 (changing the gather-skill result table; or, preferably, adding recipes that require currently unused materials)
Thanks,
Ellie
My crafting system (that is, the mechanics of the skill rolls, skill set, etc.) is based 100% on GURPS. (The recipes and the distribution of craftable items and required components are not based on GURPS as such, however.) I did this on purpose, and I consider the crafting system to be my NWN2 masterpiece.
Any changes made to the number and type of skills used, any change to the mechanics of the skill rolls (including critical failures), any changes to the system design as such, will make the crafting system not 100% GURPS, and it will make the system deviate from what I intended. To be sure, KEMO Crafting no longer belongs to me; I have given it to Bar to do with as he pleases. That being said, if any changes are made to the crafting system that move it away from a GURPS base, I request that my name, my initials, be removed from the system. I request that it be made clear that I do not authorize the changes. As I said, I consider the secondary skills system to be my scripting masterpiece. I am more proud of it than I am of anything else I created for Haven, including the animations. It took me the better part of a year to design the crafting system, and my departure from NWN2 shortly after finishing the last piece (prospecting) was not coincidental.
To be specific, changes to the system that would result in my "disowning" the system include the following posts above:
Reply 1 (changing the skill list)
Reply 5 (removing critical failures - this criticism is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the system: it is *not* D&D, and success and failure are not absolutes: even master craftsmen can accidentally spill things on their workbenches)
Reply 6 part 2 (recipe skill thresholds - that's D&D, and I intentionally designed away from that)
Changes to the system that I think would be beneficial and are worth looking into - and would not fundamentally alter what I designed - include:
Reply 2 (fixing the recipe requirements to be less annoying)
Reply 3 (altering the items involved in critical successes, etc.)
Reply 6 part 1 (changing the effects of critical failures)
Reply 7 (adding/shifting gather-skill locations)
Reply 8 (changing the gather-skill result table; or, preferably, adding recipes that require currently unused materials)
Thanks,
Ellie
Mon, 2010-09-13 11:25
#10
Remember K.I.S.S. Having critical failures is a short term annoyance. Having critical success will be a long term problem. Removing both solves both issues. Whether the system is based on D&D, GURPS or FUBAR doesn't matter, this is truely a unique opportunity to circumvent issues that have risen in the past.
Mon, 2010-09-13 12:22
#11
I removed my conciliatory post because things like "this is truly a unique opportunity to circumvent issues that have arisen in the past" are reminder to me that the only reason this thread even exists is because I'm no longer around to say "no."
Do what you want. I've already made my interests known to Bar.
Do what you want. I've already made my interests known to Bar.
Mon, 2010-09-13 13:30
#12
Ellie,
I appreciate your comments on this topic more than you can imagine. But then, I am used to getting input from a variety of sources, and contemplating each, before making a decision as part of my career.
In regards this topic, I am not trying to fundamentally change your creation, but am looking for input on ways to make it better for Haven.
From your original input in the post above, we are in agreement on all but #1. I have difficulty seeing much difference between Weaponsmithing Melee and Weaponsmithing Missile, Farming and Gardening, Engineering and Trap Making, and Alchemy and Poison Making to warrant seperate crafts for each. Again, my opinion.
The 6.1 and 6.2 options were thrown out as possible solutions, with my favor on the Critical Success and Failures, if for no other reason, than the consistent use of Crafting Materials that Crafters can gather through Fishing, Farming, Gardening, Herbalism and Prospecting.
I want to close by thanking you for the KEMO 2.0 Crafting system. It is heads and shoulders above the NWN2 system, and makes haven a much better place because of it.
I appreciate your comments on this topic more than you can imagine. But then, I am used to getting input from a variety of sources, and contemplating each, before making a decision as part of my career.
In regards this topic, I am not trying to fundamentally change your creation, but am looking for input on ways to make it better for Haven.
From your original input in the post above, we are in agreement on all but #1. I have difficulty seeing much difference between Weaponsmithing Melee and Weaponsmithing Missile, Farming and Gardening, Engineering and Trap Making, and Alchemy and Poison Making to warrant seperate crafts for each. Again, my opinion.
The 6.1 and 6.2 options were thrown out as possible solutions, with my favor on the Critical Success and Failures, if for no other reason, than the consistent use of Crafting Materials that Crafters can gather through Fishing, Farming, Gardening, Herbalism and Prospecting.
I want to close by thanking you for the KEMO 2.0 Crafting system. It is heads and shoulders above the NWN2 system, and makes haven a much better place because of it.
Mon, 2010-09-13 16:19
#13
Problem: Prospecting is the single most profitable trade, without a doubt. It supports enchanting, smithing, and jewel crafting mainly (but not exclusively). None of the other gathering trades are so diverse. I honestly think that it makes less sense for herb gathering and fishing to have higher difficulty and more restrictions than prospecting.
It is my opinion that prospecting in general needs to be looked at more closely, and perhaps the other gathering trades as well. Some ideas that come to mind that might help improve the system would be.
Solution
-Perhaps some overlap would help alleviate some of the pressure to prospect. Adding essence drops to the other gathering trades. For example fishing might yield water, earth, air, power (fire wouldn't make sense, obviously). As well, maybe the possibility of acquiring gems or ingots on rare occasion.
-Locations, as said before, localizing any gathering trade to one area doesn't seem to me to be a good idea. Reducing the amount of nodes in one area and spreading them into others would reduce unnecessary traffic in the mines (hence, hopefully, less spawns/lag).
-Equalizing the base gathering trade difficulties, and factoring in more outside modifiers. As daylight and tools affect the chance for picking herbs, maybe fatigue and the material the pick is made from could be factored into the difficulty for mining. The more you mine, the greater your penalty, and let's say in order to lower the penalty you would have to wait a set period of time without mining. As well, if you're using a pick made from iron it would break easier than a pick made from adamantium. I realize this complicates the system a bit but, other trades are already using similar ideas.
In any case, I've enjoyed playing on Haven the last few months and these are just a few suggestions that I hope generate some more thought toward improving the new trade system in general. Thanks for reading and for all your hard work making Haven such an enjoyable server to play on.
It is my opinion that prospecting in general needs to be looked at more closely, and perhaps the other gathering trades as well. Some ideas that come to mind that might help improve the system would be.
Solution
-Perhaps some overlap would help alleviate some of the pressure to prospect. Adding essence drops to the other gathering trades. For example fishing might yield water, earth, air, power (fire wouldn't make sense, obviously). As well, maybe the possibility of acquiring gems or ingots on rare occasion.
-Locations, as said before, localizing any gathering trade to one area doesn't seem to me to be a good idea. Reducing the amount of nodes in one area and spreading them into others would reduce unnecessary traffic in the mines (hence, hopefully, less spawns/lag).
-Equalizing the base gathering trade difficulties, and factoring in more outside modifiers. As daylight and tools affect the chance for picking herbs, maybe fatigue and the material the pick is made from could be factored into the difficulty for mining. The more you mine, the greater your penalty, and let's say in order to lower the penalty you would have to wait a set period of time without mining. As well, if you're using a pick made from iron it would break easier than a pick made from adamantium. I realize this complicates the system a bit but, other trades are already using similar ideas.
In any case, I've enjoyed playing on Haven the last few months and these are just a few suggestions that I hope generate some more thought toward improving the new trade system in general. Thanks for reading and for all your hard work making Haven such an enjoyable server to play on.
Mon, 2010-09-13 16:35
#14
Problem: mining, fishing, gathering locations issues
There's mining spots in the Kortuga Caves and in the Vermin Caves. There's herb gathering spots in Kortuga Cove, Sunbright and I think Chauntea's Hold. And there's fishing spots in Kortuga Cove, Sunbright, Gob Island and Chauntea's. So it's pretty spread out already. More would probably be good.
Problem: prospecting is super-profitable
But you don't get as much xp as you do with fishing. I've gotten something like 10-15 levels (across 3 characters) just by fishing. Not so much with prospecting. I don't do any herb gathering stuff but people tell me it's ridiculously hard for not much result, so maybe that needs to be changed.
I don't know about finding essences and stuff while fishing. It kind of doesn't make sense. Maybe finding old boots.
Or old boots stuffed with gems. 
Personally I like having the two skills completely separate. One of my characters does both, one does fishing only, one does prospecting only. But if I could get essences or gems while fishing, why would I do mining? Unless you want there to be fish embedded in the rock that you can get out with the pick.
There's mining spots in the Kortuga Caves and in the Vermin Caves. There's herb gathering spots in Kortuga Cove, Sunbright and I think Chauntea's Hold. And there's fishing spots in Kortuga Cove, Sunbright, Gob Island and Chauntea's. So it's pretty spread out already. More would probably be good.
Problem: prospecting is super-profitable
But you don't get as much xp as you do with fishing. I've gotten something like 10-15 levels (across 3 characters) just by fishing. Not so much with prospecting. I don't do any herb gathering stuff but people tell me it's ridiculously hard for not much result, so maybe that needs to be changed.
I don't know about finding essences and stuff while fishing. It kind of doesn't make sense. Maybe finding old boots.
Or old boots stuffed with gems. Personally I like having the two skills completely separate. One of my characters does both, one does fishing only, one does prospecting only. But if I could get essences or gems while fishing, why would I do mining? Unless you want there to be fish embedded in the rock that you can get out with the pick.
Mon, 2010-09-13 19:15
#15
Excellent... Finally some life to the thread....
Problem: Gathering Crafts need to be balanced for reward of exp and gold.
I have a Herbalist, who has not adventured for the last 7 levels, gaining exp only though Critical Successes in Herb gathering, Critical Successes making Healing Potions and defending himself against those darn beetles in Kortuga who are protecting the herbs... Of course, the progress has been slow, but I like it like that personally, so not an issue. The majority of his efforts gein for herbs with little or no purpose in the game.
I also have a prospector, and he advances much faster than the herbalist. Considering the caves have spiders and pirates he gets about 100 exp per location from them, and I would guess another 150-200 exp per location on average while prospecting. since almost every succes gives experience... Plus prospecting is much more lucrative gold wise.
I have a farmer, but with a week between harvests of the raw materials he needs for his other crafts woodworking and ranged weapons... He is always without materials, and his profits are thin at best. He gets experience for some of the things he makes from the materials, but not all.... Additionally I am not sure how much, if any, experience her gets from farming, and know that the material costs to farm is about steep, when he can find the Water Essences required. He only grows three things, Duskwood, Shederran and Zalantar, so other farming crops may differ. A load of his most profitable material, nets him 1500 or so exp if made into the easiest sold craft, and he nets about 3k from it on a weeks work, that with a 300% markup over cost... Though part of that is because he is not trying to make a fortune from it, and he could easily sell the end result for twice what he does.
I do not have a fishermen, so not sure how the EXP/Gold reward is for it.. But from the number fo fish in the market, and the amount cooks will pay for Basil and Bay leaves to cook them... It must be pretty darned good...
Solution: Good question... I suspect a combination of things. More uses for herbs and farming materials, fewer high end materials from fishing and prospecting, with the majority being the least lucrative.
For instance in Prospecting, something I am experienced with, the vast majority of things mined should be ores... For instance 66% of all prospecting successes should be these. This would provide a steady supply to Armorers, Weaponsmiths and Engineers to perform their crafts, in an effort to make Masterwork versions for players to get enchanted.
Followed by non-craftable common gems that can be sold for 10-25 gp each at NPC's... Say 21% should be these.
Then the rarer materials, should be just that, rare..
Essences could only be faint or weak... And collected 11% of the time. This would provide a constant supply to Alchemists to merge and refine for the craft markets.
Finally the high end gems... These should be very rare, only 1% of prospecting successes.
Problem: Gathering Crafts need to be balanced for reward of exp and gold.
I have a Herbalist, who has not adventured for the last 7 levels, gaining exp only though Critical Successes in Herb gathering, Critical Successes making Healing Potions and defending himself against those darn beetles in Kortuga who are protecting the herbs... Of course, the progress has been slow, but I like it like that personally, so not an issue. The majority of his efforts gein for herbs with little or no purpose in the game.
I also have a prospector, and he advances much faster than the herbalist. Considering the caves have spiders and pirates he gets about 100 exp per location from them, and I would guess another 150-200 exp per location on average while prospecting. since almost every succes gives experience... Plus prospecting is much more lucrative gold wise.
I have a farmer, but with a week between harvests of the raw materials he needs for his other crafts woodworking and ranged weapons... He is always without materials, and his profits are thin at best. He gets experience for some of the things he makes from the materials, but not all.... Additionally I am not sure how much, if any, experience her gets from farming, and know that the material costs to farm is about steep, when he can find the Water Essences required. He only grows three things, Duskwood, Shederran and Zalantar, so other farming crops may differ. A load of his most profitable material, nets him 1500 or so exp if made into the easiest sold craft, and he nets about 3k from it on a weeks work, that with a 300% markup over cost... Though part of that is because he is not trying to make a fortune from it, and he could easily sell the end result for twice what he does.
I do not have a fishermen, so not sure how the EXP/Gold reward is for it.. But from the number fo fish in the market, and the amount cooks will pay for Basil and Bay leaves to cook them... It must be pretty darned good...
Solution: Good question... I suspect a combination of things. More uses for herbs and farming materials, fewer high end materials from fishing and prospecting, with the majority being the least lucrative.
For instance in Prospecting, something I am experienced with, the vast majority of things mined should be ores... For instance 66% of all prospecting successes should be these. This would provide a steady supply to Armorers, Weaponsmiths and Engineers to perform their crafts, in an effort to make Masterwork versions for players to get enchanted.
Followed by non-craftable common gems that can be sold for 10-25 gp each at NPC's... Say 21% should be these.
Then the rarer materials, should be just that, rare..
Essences could only be faint or weak... And collected 11% of the time. This would provide a constant supply to Alchemists to merge and refine for the craft markets.
Finally the high end gems... These should be very rare, only 1% of prospecting successes.
Tue, 2010-09-14 18:11
#16
Siobhan Mochrie wrote:
Excellent... Finally some life to the thread....
Problem: Gathering Crafts need to be balanced for reward of exp and gold.
A very interesting thread, with a lot of interesting suggestions. From my perspective, the crafting system works well enough as it is, and shouldn't really need many changes. The lack of drider silks and leatherworking supplies are annoying, perhaps, but they do drop and can be collected on the open market. They are only for used of handful of elite items anyway (gloves, belts of abilities ; bows and such can be bought from NPCs if really needed). It would be an easy fix to add the items to an NPC vendor, at a rate of 3000 to maybe 5000 gold each.
I think critical failures and sucesses add to the fun of it. Failures as it is are uncommon enough, assuming one has enough skill for the thing to be crafted.
It's true that some crafts aren't very lucrative or useful, but no one expects a farmer to make as much gold as a jeweler. Prospecting may seem lucrative now, but eventually supply will begin to meet demand (it hasn't yet!!!) and the economy will reach equilibrium. As it stands, an hour prospecting seems about or less lucrative as an hour of high level grinding, depending on one's luck. If prospecting is reduced, one will simply have to pay more cash for essences, perhaps from NPCs. Even now, I occasionally buy essences from NPCs and merge them for fun and to avoid grinding away in the caves.
Prospecting, as it is now, made the process of collecting essences and materials a lot less tedious, and means we can get fun epic level weapon(s) a lot sooner (e.g. +4, divine, and holy, at a cost of about 23 radiant power essences, if math is correct, or 40,000 gold). Reducing it in the way you have suggested would simply mean more a lot more grinding and a lot more tedium, and would raise the cost of all crafts that prospecting feeds into (fish, jewelry, armor, mainly). Right now, someone has a chance of finding _something_ valuable in a short run, which is good for slave characters, especially characters that, for whatever reason, don't get a lot of time in game (maybe an hour at a time).
The masterwork idea is interesting... but I would also think that most 'regular' mithril / adamantine / cold iron items are of exotic manufacture and therefore already 'masterwork' in a sense, making them suitable for enchantment by default. Someone with more of a sense of D&D lore should chime in on this.
K.I.S.S. is good - making the system more complex will make it harder for new people to learn. As it stands, the lack of in-game documentation makes it confusing for newcomers and veterans a like. Fewer crafts (or more 'points' per level, if you wanted to keep the current system) actually sounds like a good idea, and might make people use some of the lesser used crafts, for fun or RP (e.g. Poisoncrafting).. This is a social server, and we are here mostly for one kind of RP or another, with crafting and grinding being only a small part of what we can (hopefully) do.
Tue, 2010-09-14 19:37
#17
Eric 'Reed' Willendry wrote:
A very interesting thread, with a lot of interesting suggestions. From my perspective, the crafting system works well enough as it is, and shouldn't really need many changes. The lack of drider silks and leatherworking supplies are annoying, perhaps, but they do drop and can be collected on the open market. They are only for used of handful of elite items anyway (gloves, belts of abilities ; bows and such can be bought from NPCs if really needed). It would be an easy fix to add the items to an NPC vendor, at a rate of 3000 to maybe 5000 gold each.
I think critical failures and sucesses add to the fun of it. Failures as it is are uncommon enough, assuming one has enough skill for the thing to be crafted.
It's true that some crafts aren't very lucrative or useful, but no one expects a farmer to make as much gold as a jeweler. Prospecting may seem lucrative now, but eventually supply will begin to meet demand (it hasn't yet!!!) and the economy will reach equilibrium. As it stands, an hour prospecting seems about or less lucrative as an hour of high level grinding, depending on one's luck. If prospecting is reduced, one will simply have to pay more cash for essences, perhaps from NPCs. Even now, I occasionally buy essences from NPCs and merge them for fun and to avoid grinding away in the caves.
Prospecting, as it is now, made the process of collecting essences and materials a lot less tedious, and means we can get fun epic level weapon(s) a lot sooner (e.g. +4, divine, and holy, at a cost of about 23 radiant power essences, if math is correct, or 40,000 gold). Reducing it in the way you have suggested would simply mean more a lot more grinding and a lot more tedium, and would raise the cost of all crafts that prospecting feeds into (fish, jewelry, armor, mainly). Right now, someone has a chance of finding _something_ valuable in a short run, which is good for slave characters, especially characters that, for whatever reason, don't get a lot of time in game (maybe an hour at a time).
The masterwork idea is interesting... but I would also think that most 'regular' mithril / adamantine / cold iron items are of exotic manufacture and therefore already 'masterwork' in a sense, making them suitable for enchantment by default. Someone with more of a sense of D&D lore should chime in on this.
K.I.S.S. is good - making the system more complex will make it harder for new people to learn. As it stands, the lack of in-game documentation makes it confusing for newcomers and veterans a like. Fewer crafts (or more 'points' per level, if you wanted to keep the current system) actually sounds like a good idea, and might make people use some of the lesser used crafts, for fun or RP (e.g. Poisoncrafting).. This is a social server, and we are here mostly for one kind of RP or another, with crafting and grinding being only a small part of what we can (hopefully) do.
First of all..Thanks for your input.... It ia appreciated, as is the input of everyone so far. Let's continue to keep this positive and constructive.
I don't think it needs many changes either.... (Though with the number above it might appear as though, but really, are they really that many changes, or just fine tuning what already exists?)
A streamlining of what exists by combining duplicitous crafts (#1 suggestion in the thread) plus reducing the materials gathered by each of the Gathering Crafts and/or making all they materials gathered useable in crafts, would help to streamline further. For instance, there are 4 types of wood in the game, and 5 types of metals. NWN2 had about 30 each of Gems and other Craftable materials, plus 5 basic essences of varying strengths. The New system expanded those by dozens, and added complexity to crafting. Unfortunately, many of the new materials added have no purpose in the crafting system, and the original materials are used sparingly, many having little or no use at all.
If the original NWN2 materials, and a few extras for each gathering craft (Fishing obviously has all new) were able to be crafted, instead of found only. Then it would be streamlined even more.
Yes, in the PnP game they are already Masterwork, but they are also extremely rare, and cost alot of money to purchase. In NWN2, they are not so rare... Go to the Auctioneer and see how much Alchemical Silver and Darksteel are on the open market.
Finally I disagree about the Gold from prospecting and from Grinding. My prospector gets about 1 hour a week of play time on average, and has amassed more money from prospecting, selling only the excess Beryls (He keeps one of each for himself) on the market, at a fraction of what other people are selling them for, than my Bowyer/Farmer and my Herbalist combined have have made, and I play them for three or four times the amount of time each... (Though the Herbalist does only sell at commission due to a Vow of Poverty, but even at full values, he wouldn't be close to the Propsector.)
My Archer is the only one I grind with in the valley, and I have yet to make as much in one hour as the prospector has made in less than 30 minutes of prospecting.
So, I disagree with you on that statement from experience.
Wed, 2010-09-15 09:31
#18
I'd like to thank folks for contributing to this thread and hopefully the very good discussion will continue.
We are very much interested in working on improvements to the module and this system in particular. I've not been doing much crafting and been out of the loop on these changes, I've been using them more to catch up and appreciate the input.
I think there is room here for improvement. Much of it may be had in improving the module/world (for balance, drops, recipes, etc.) and documentation. The system is arguably a little complex for a social server, I think some work on documentation and making sure it is more intuitive to get into the tasks is in order.
These points, KEMO made will not go unnoticed:
I would add UI and Accessible Help as particularly important.
GURPS is a well playtested system, although this adaptation is not particularly, and the way it fits into Haven is still evolving.
Every time I look at suggested changes to the structure, I have to think maybe there is a better way to fix it without doing that. Not that I am married to system as it stands... but changes to the structure of the system should only done for compelling reasons.
To address a few specific points:
Reply 1 (changing the skill list): I see where this may be desirable but this would be very disruptive, causing people to redesign their crafters yet again. I would be loath to do this, and I am not sure there is a big gain to be added here.
Reply 5 (removing critical failures): I think this can perhaps be better addressed by at least potentially reducing the effects of the critical failure. Master craftsmen set themselves up better to recover from failures than amateurs do. So I might consider a second skill based roll on the severity of the failure. Or maybe just lower the penalty in general.
Reply 6 part 2 (recipe skill thresholds): People do seem to be able to set themselves up to a level where they can reliably produce the results required and offer things for sale. While in the learning phase they may have to play the odds on what they can offer. I did consider this change, but I do think we should see if we can do without it.
As for the rest of KEMO's analysis (and some relevant other posts), I think its a very good point that these changes could very well circumvent the need for more wholesale ones. Worth trying first.
- Bar
We are very much interested in working on improvements to the module and this system in particular. I've not been doing much crafting and been out of the loop on these changes, I've been using them more to catch up and appreciate the input.
I think there is room here for improvement. Much of it may be had in improving the module/world (for balance, drops, recipes, etc.) and documentation. The system is arguably a little complex for a social server, I think some work on documentation and making sure it is more intuitive to get into the tasks is in order.
These points, KEMO made will not go unnoticed:
kemo wrote:
Reply 1 (changing the skill list)
Reply 5 (removing critical failures - this criticism is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the system: it is *not* D&D, and success and failure are not absolutes: even master craftsmen can accidentally spill things on their workbenches)
Reply 6 part 2 (recipe skill thresholds - that's D&D, and I intentionally designed away from that)
Changes to the system that I think would be beneficial and are worth looking into - and would not fundamentally alter what I designed - include:
Reply 2 (fixing the recipe requirements to be less annoying)
Reply 3 (altering the items involved in critical successes, etc.)
Reply 6 part 1 (changing the effects of critical failures)
Reply 7 (adding/shifting gather-skill locations)
Reply 8 (changing the gather-skill result table; or, preferably, adding recipes that require currently unused materials)
I would add UI and Accessible Help as particularly important.
GURPS is a well playtested system, although this adaptation is not particularly, and the way it fits into Haven is still evolving.
Every time I look at suggested changes to the structure, I have to think maybe there is a better way to fix it without doing that. Not that I am married to system as it stands... but changes to the structure of the system should only done for compelling reasons.
To address a few specific points:
Reply 1 (changing the skill list): I see where this may be desirable but this would be very disruptive, causing people to redesign their crafters yet again. I would be loath to do this, and I am not sure there is a big gain to be added here.
Reply 5 (removing critical failures): I think this can perhaps be better addressed by at least potentially reducing the effects of the critical failure. Master craftsmen set themselves up better to recover from failures than amateurs do. So I might consider a second skill based roll on the severity of the failure. Or maybe just lower the penalty in general.
Reply 6 part 2 (recipe skill thresholds): People do seem to be able to set themselves up to a level where they can reliably produce the results required and offer things for sale. While in the learning phase they may have to play the odds on what they can offer. I did consider this change, but I do think we should see if we can do without it.
As for the rest of KEMO's analysis (and some relevant other posts), I think its a very good point that these changes could very well circumvent the need for more wholesale ones. Worth trying first.
- Bar
Fri, 2010-09-17 12:21
#19
barfubaz wrote:
Reply 1 (changing the skill list): I see where this may be desirable but this would be very disruptive, causing people to redesign their crafters yet again. I would be loath to do this, and I am not sure there is a big gain to be added here.
Bar, perhaps identifying which skills are currently being done by crafters, and ranking by Primary, Secondary, or Tertiary, and determining if merging a couple could streamline things...
For instance: I would hazard a guess that Engineering has few if anyone making things with it. Same with Trap Making, Gardening and ranged Weapons. Which was why I suggested merging similiar ones together. With so many, you end up having some that are not used or rarely used, especially on a server with 50 people on at any given time.
I suspect you will find that the most lucrative ones will have the most players active in them: Prospecting, Fishing, Cooking, Thaumaturgy and Theology.
Again, just my .02.
As to redesigning crafters yet again, I do not see that being as much an issue, since the NWN2 skill would likely not be changed, nor would the attributes. Only the KEMO2.0 skillpoint allocation would be changed, and the means to do this is already built into the system.... Just reset the counter of times this can be accomplished.
barfubaz wrote:
Reply 5 (removing critical failures): I think this can perhaps be better addressed by at least potentially reducing the effects of the critical failure. Master craftsmen set themselves up better to recover from failures than amateurs do. So I might consider a second skill based roll on the severity of the failure. Or maybe just lower the penalty in general.
How about a third option... The delay/penalty is based on your skill points... Take 30 Minus current Skill points in the craft, and divide remainder by by 4, rounds off, and the result is the number of minutes you cannot craft, or the penalty to all further crafting for X minutes. Failure or Critical Failure have the same effect.
Examplea:
Apprentice Alchemist Joe has a 10 base skill in the craft. (30 - 10 = 20 / 4 = 5) Thus Joe has to wait 5 minutes or suffer a -5 penalty to his crafting attempts in that craft for X minutes.
Grand Master Alchemist Jane has a 25 skill in the craft. (30 - 25 = 5 / 4 = 1.25) Thus Jane only has to wait one minute, or suffers a -1 Penalty to all crafting attempts in the next X Minutes.
Of the two, I like the Penalty to success for X minutes options best, as this would allow them to keep trying, but be affected by their aw crap moment.
barfubaz wrote:
Reply 6 part 2 (recipe skill thresholds): People do seem to be able to set themselves up to a level where they can reliably produce the results required and offer things for sale. While in the learning phase they may have to play the odds on what they can offer. I did consider this change, but I do think we should see if we can do without it.
I agree, and prefer reply 6 Part 1, as mentioned above in #5.
Fri, 2010-09-17 15:08
#20
I would like to start my post by saying that I do not wish to comment on other players posts so I have only scanned the above, No offence to anyone that has posted I just wish to put across my views of the current crafting system as I see it.
With this said there are those that do and those that know, I do. Again no offence meant but I dont sit reading over pages and pages of skill point modifiers and I do not know the structure or scripture to the new crafting system, this said I know about the practical use of the system and how I feel it can be improved.
When the secondary skills system was introduced I was very sceptical, at that point the Grand Lodge and Crafting guild was doing well. I had a suspision that the crafting system as we knew it would be removed. I did make a post to this affect and was told that the Soz system wasnt going to be removed that it was only an addition to the soz system. This was incorrect as the later introduction of the full crafting system was implimented and Soz was removed.
However I did try to adapt, I spoke to kemo and asked for instruction on how the new system worked,as Tomi had been the main crafter up until this point. I then had my first taste of the new crafting system and here I found the first problem. Kemo used Bracers +8 to show me how it worked. Now Tomi has 32 intelligence and 28 dexterity, he has all crafting feats and his crafting skill points are well over 20 plus and the addition of greater gloves of the artifacter. Now stood with kemo I set about making the bracers, I hit a critical fail, I lost in the region of 50,000 of gold in materials. I was shocked to say the least. I couldnt comprehend how with the feats the skills and ability rolls how it would be possible to fail to such a great extent.
Why would someone risk losing that amount of cash or goods? Would people stick to items they knew they wouldnt fail on to ensure they didnt lose money? Is this why so many people are upset that they just cant get the gear they need to be able to hunt in the areas to fit thier level.
Now my second point.. The actual skills.
eg... Boots of striding
To make these you must have leatherwork
The recipe
The materials
Now your success depends on how many points you have invested in leatherwork. So Tomi walks to Myrins purchases a pair of leather boots and then all he has to do is enchant them. SO why the need for leatherwork? he is not making the boots he is simply placing an enchantment upon them. This is the same for many of the items that can be made, jewellery,gloves,belts etc..
So I think that for the above reason the system will need to looked at as it makes no sense, why place skill points on things to pass something your not actually doing.. you buy the ring.. why have points in jewellery making at no point have you made any jewellery.. you are buying them everything is encanting not creating.
My next point is the modifiers. I believe that the system makes no sense in some catagories. Armour for instance.
To be able to bend metal, to bash metal to a shape of your liking you must have the strength to do so but the armour mod if dex?
I find this perplexing to say the least.
As I see it seconday skills are things that you know with little thought it is more an instinct as a result of your up bringing prehaps. A farmers son will know the right time of year to plough the fields and to sew a crop, this does not mean they wish to follow in their fathers footsteps and become a farmer but none the less whatever path they choose this secondary knowledge will be with them.
This differs greatly from tradesmen, a tradesmen trains to become skilled in a profession. The farmers son left the farm and wanted to become a carpenter so he would need to train to become a carpenter/blacksmith/jeweller.
This differs greatly again from an enchanter, an enchanter who infuses an item with a magical power. The farmers son left the farm and trained in candlekeep for many years to learn how to do this. When infusing an item he is not making that item he is simply infusing and object with a magical quality, his only skill here is the wealth of knowledge he calls upon from his studies at candlekeep. Why does it differ whether it be a set of iron bracers, a set of leather boots or a golden ring, he is enchanting, only the enchant differs. So why would he need a different skill for each item when all he is doing is enchanting.
In the old system you had a scroll +5 now it was suitable for any item, as an enchant it doesnt matter what you are casting it on as the spell is the spell no matter what. If you are to cast finger of death, you do not require several differnt versions of finger of death depending who your aiming it at.
The spell magical protection is the same spell the outcome however depends on the item it is crafted on, you are causing an item to give magial protection to the wearer. Why would the spell differ depending on the item.
Something that I do find very annoying is that you can gather the materials, buy the scroll put them into a bag and you have a magical item, if your ability scores on INT or DEX are high enough. You require no crafting feats, you are not even required to have to read the scroll yet you are able to infuse that item with the spell, this makes no sense to me and something I believe could be greatly improved.
My solution may be impractical and may be impossible, I am no scripter but as I see it, the secondary skills are for your basic character and tradesman ie. someone who can cook a nice stew to someone who can pound a piece of metal into a sword or chestplate.
For enchanting,infusing an object with magic I believe the system should revert back to the foundations of Kemosoz and we look out how we could add recipes and fix any of the small errors that it contained.
I can understand Kemo's pride for the system, I can understand that it may be hurtful to have everyone jumping on it and pointing out its faults, but any company before releasing a product of any kind, food to computer software will have it tested and pulled apart before releasing it. At no point were the actual crafters consulted and thier wealth of knowledge taken into consideration. I appreciate that these steps are now being taken but fear that the resolve will require more than a few tweaks to fix. I will of course offer my knowledge and understanding where possible to assist with any changes. I would like to add that I know the difficulty there will be changing anything as I know bar wishes to avoid disruption to the crafters once more.
As far as I am aware many of the crafters decided to lose all crafting abilities and move to a different profession, something I would have done had it not been for my mrs nagging me not to. Yes we may have to rebuild, yes it would be nice not to have to, but if we are doing so because we have helped create a unique crafting system that is pratical then I for one have no objections in having to do so.
With this said there are those that do and those that know, I do. Again no offence meant but I dont sit reading over pages and pages of skill point modifiers and I do not know the structure or scripture to the new crafting system, this said I know about the practical use of the system and how I feel it can be improved.
When the secondary skills system was introduced I was very sceptical, at that point the Grand Lodge and Crafting guild was doing well. I had a suspision that the crafting system as we knew it would be removed. I did make a post to this affect and was told that the Soz system wasnt going to be removed that it was only an addition to the soz system. This was incorrect as the later introduction of the full crafting system was implimented and Soz was removed.
However I did try to adapt, I spoke to kemo and asked for instruction on how the new system worked,as Tomi had been the main crafter up until this point. I then had my first taste of the new crafting system and here I found the first problem. Kemo used Bracers +8 to show me how it worked. Now Tomi has 32 intelligence and 28 dexterity, he has all crafting feats and his crafting skill points are well over 20 plus and the addition of greater gloves of the artifacter. Now stood with kemo I set about making the bracers, I hit a critical fail, I lost in the region of 50,000 of gold in materials. I was shocked to say the least. I couldnt comprehend how with the feats the skills and ability rolls how it would be possible to fail to such a great extent.
Why would someone risk losing that amount of cash or goods? Would people stick to items they knew they wouldnt fail on to ensure they didnt lose money? Is this why so many people are upset that they just cant get the gear they need to be able to hunt in the areas to fit thier level.
Now my second point.. The actual skills.
eg... Boots of striding
To make these you must have leatherwork
The recipe
The materials
Now your success depends on how many points you have invested in leatherwork. So Tomi walks to Myrins purchases a pair of leather boots and then all he has to do is enchant them. SO why the need for leatherwork? he is not making the boots he is simply placing an enchantment upon them. This is the same for many of the items that can be made, jewellery,gloves,belts etc..
So I think that for the above reason the system will need to looked at as it makes no sense, why place skill points on things to pass something your not actually doing.. you buy the ring.. why have points in jewellery making at no point have you made any jewellery.. you are buying them everything is encanting not creating.
My next point is the modifiers. I believe that the system makes no sense in some catagories. Armour for instance.
To be able to bend metal, to bash metal to a shape of your liking you must have the strength to do so but the armour mod if dex?
I find this perplexing to say the least.
As I see it seconday skills are things that you know with little thought it is more an instinct as a result of your up bringing prehaps. A farmers son will know the right time of year to plough the fields and to sew a crop, this does not mean they wish to follow in their fathers footsteps and become a farmer but none the less whatever path they choose this secondary knowledge will be with them.
This differs greatly from tradesmen, a tradesmen trains to become skilled in a profession. The farmers son left the farm and wanted to become a carpenter so he would need to train to become a carpenter/blacksmith/jeweller.
This differs greatly again from an enchanter, an enchanter who infuses an item with a magical power. The farmers son left the farm and trained in candlekeep for many years to learn how to do this. When infusing an item he is not making that item he is simply infusing and object with a magical quality, his only skill here is the wealth of knowledge he calls upon from his studies at candlekeep. Why does it differ whether it be a set of iron bracers, a set of leather boots or a golden ring, he is enchanting, only the enchant differs. So why would he need a different skill for each item when all he is doing is enchanting.
In the old system you had a scroll +5 now it was suitable for any item, as an enchant it doesnt matter what you are casting it on as the spell is the spell no matter what. If you are to cast finger of death, you do not require several differnt versions of finger of death depending who your aiming it at.
The spell magical protection is the same spell the outcome however depends on the item it is crafted on, you are causing an item to give magial protection to the wearer. Why would the spell differ depending on the item.
Something that I do find very annoying is that you can gather the materials, buy the scroll put them into a bag and you have a magical item, if your ability scores on INT or DEX are high enough. You require no crafting feats, you are not even required to have to read the scroll yet you are able to infuse that item with the spell, this makes no sense to me and something I believe could be greatly improved.
My solution may be impractical and may be impossible, I am no scripter but as I see it, the secondary skills are for your basic character and tradesman ie. someone who can cook a nice stew to someone who can pound a piece of metal into a sword or chestplate.
For enchanting,infusing an object with magic I believe the system should revert back to the foundations of Kemosoz and we look out how we could add recipes and fix any of the small errors that it contained.
I can understand Kemo's pride for the system, I can understand that it may be hurtful to have everyone jumping on it and pointing out its faults, but any company before releasing a product of any kind, food to computer software will have it tested and pulled apart before releasing it. At no point were the actual crafters consulted and thier wealth of knowledge taken into consideration. I appreciate that these steps are now being taken but fear that the resolve will require more than a few tweaks to fix. I will of course offer my knowledge and understanding where possible to assist with any changes. I would like to add that I know the difficulty there will be changing anything as I know bar wishes to avoid disruption to the crafters once more.
As far as I am aware many of the crafters decided to lose all crafting abilities and move to a different profession, something I would have done had it not been for my mrs nagging me not to. Yes we may have to rebuild, yes it would be nice not to have to, but if we are doing so because we have helped create a unique crafting system that is pratical then I for one have no objections in having to do so.
Fri, 2010-09-17 19:52
#21
Boiling down some points from Morac's post:
- Bar
- Crits are surprisingly devastating particularly for higher levels of skill
- This is being addressed in posts above. Some thoughts on how to adjust this being mentioned, primarily focused on just minimizing crit effects. Perhaps randomizing how bad they are with skill helping minimize, or just losing a bit instead of so much.
- Interconnected skill requirements that come from the wondrous items style of crafting with the creation or working of the item type.
- This is not a flaw in the system per se, its a choice made relating to the balance. If the enchantment can be thrown on anything, creating a more flexible menu of ways to go about things, people can create a more powerful ensemble of items. Also some sense of total craftsmanship comes out of it, but yeah that was a choice that was apparently made. I think it could be changed with very little change to the system, just new recipes.
- Whether or not SoZ crafting was promised to stay and then pulled later... I can't really address.
- I do know KEMO wrote the SoZ style and slowly became disgusted with it. Original SoZ crafting was heavily wrapped up in the trading system they had. I do remember that initially both systems was the plan, then I was informed later it was no longer. I guess plans change.
- Bar
Fri, 2010-09-17 20:15
#22
Problem: Specific spells required for items allows non spell casters to enchant items with scrolls. Enchanting items should be the sole domain of spell casting classes, Arcane and Divine.
Also, characters can take a single Arcane or Divine Spell class, and enchant highest tier enchantments, that should require specialization in the class. Having a 1st level sorcerer buy a scroll with Improved Mage Armor and use it to make Bracers +8 (Example, not positive of specifics off the top of my head.) does not make sense.
Additionally spells required do not always make sense, Freeom of Movement as Thaumaturge enchantemtn for instance:
Solution: Remove specific spell requirement, and replace specific spells with a Caster Level requirement. This will allow all spell casters to be able to enchant semething of their appropriate caster level in power, and will still allow lower level casters to enchant somethings, and non casters to craft stuff using special materials and those crafts that do not produce powerful magic items.
Also, characters can take a single Arcane or Divine Spell class, and enchant highest tier enchantments, that should require specialization in the class. Having a 1st level sorcerer buy a scroll with Improved Mage Armor and use it to make Bracers +8 (Example, not positive of specifics off the top of my head.) does not make sense.
Additionally spells required do not always make sense, Freeom of Movement as Thaumaturge enchantemtn for instance:
Solution: Remove specific spell requirement, and replace specific spells with a Caster Level requirement. This will allow all spell casters to be able to enchant semething of their appropriate caster level in power, and will still allow lower level casters to enchant somethings, and non casters to craft stuff using special materials and those crafts that do not produce powerful magic items.
Fri, 2010-09-17 20:24
#23
barfubaz wrote:
* Interconnected skill requirements that come from the wondrous items style of crafting with the creation or working of the item type.
- Bar
- This is not a flaw in the system per se, its a choice made relating to the balance. If the enchantment can be thrown on anything, creating a more flexible menu of ways to go about things, people can create a more powerful ensemble of items. Also some sense of total craftsmanship comes out of it, but yeah that was a choice that was apparently made. I think it could be changed with very little change to the system, just new recipes.
This particular emphasis can be enhanced even more with the requirement for Masterwork base items for all enchantments.
For example: Jewelers would have to make Masterwork Jewelry (Critical Success), using Gold and Gems, before being able to enchant the items with powerful magics. All lesser materials being incapable of holding the magics. A Grand Master (20+ skill) will make one Masterwork per 10-12 tries on average. The result of this, is that materials gathered through adventuring and prospecting (And other gathering crafts for appropriate manufacturing crafts) would have a viable market, and would be removed form the system at rates that would make gathering them profitable in the first place.
Leatherworkers would have to refine 10-12 Wyvern Hides, or Bear Hides, or Dragon Hides, etc, to get a Masterwork Belt, Boots, Leather Armor, etc for enchanting further.
Sat, 2010-09-18 19:37
#24
Problem: Something is wrong with the math in the Skill System. My Character Siobhan has 17 Skill Ranks in both Jewelry and Leatherworking. Both are Dexterity based, require Create Wondrous Item Feat, and the Magicians Bench. When I look at the menus for success chance, for comperable items (Very Difficult -6), I get two seperate chances. In Jewelry I succeed on a 17 or less, in Leatherworking I succedd on a 13 or less. All things being the same, they should both have the same chance of success.
Another player has mentioned that their Wis is higher than their Int, and yet, with the same Skill Ranks in Thaumaturgy and Theology, they have a lower base chance of success with Wisdom based craft.
Solution: Check the formula for all the crafts, and ensure that the math is correct.
Another player has mentioned that their Wis is higher than their Int, and yet, with the same Skill Ranks in Thaumaturgy and Theology, they have a lower base chance of success with Wisdom based craft.
Solution: Check the formula for all the crafts, and ensure that the math is correct.
Sun, 2010-09-19 01:28
#25
You just don't know the complete formula.
Have a look at the player handbook:
"Jeweler | Hard | DEX-6"
"Leatherworking | Easy | DEX-4"
So you get a difference from that.
In addition to that:
"Craft Armor adds to Armoury: Body Armor, Leatherworking and Sewing."
"Appraise adds to Jeweler."
So check the difference between those two nwn2 skills as well.
Have a look at the player handbook:
"Jeweler | Hard | DEX-6"
"Leatherworking | Easy | DEX-4"
So you get a difference from that.
In addition to that:
"Craft Armor adds to Armoury: Body Armor, Leatherworking and Sewing."
"Appraise adds to Jeweler."
So check the difference between those two nwn2 skills as well.
Sun, 2010-09-19 05:34
#26
I think thats half the problem to be honest.. your ingame with a customer waiting and you have to consult handbooks and work out formulas to see if you can craft, this is a game, a social server.. i think your explination Sharin actually shows us another fault in the system it just isnt user friendly.
Sun, 2010-09-19 06:13
#27
Like i said i dont want to get into a arguement so i try not to comment on other peoples posts ,
siobahns post was on the money , , im sure steven hawkins could create a perfect system and stay true to fantasy world we all play in , as he is no doubt a genius but myself and 90% of the playerbase arnt , so understanding and using such a system would be beyond us . so it would be totaly useless if we the normal players cant use it or find it to difficult to use . the system then becomes useless . .
this is a game , wheres the enjoyment of daily being fustrated by hours of searching and collecting begging and praying for players with the skills you need all to be on at the same time to get the boots you want to find you failed and not only have to start again but have lost all the materials . . . is the main reason nothing is getting crafted. .
the fishing is tragic , its killing the rp here its selling xp and making those who make fish a fortune for hardly doing anything , and prospecting as bad , either of these can make a player ten times what grinding can , there turning haven into a server of fishermen , miners, farmers. .
Shairin telling us we dont know the system is exactly whats wrong with it . we dont understand it ! .that and the fact theres no leatherworking involved in leatherworking and so on right throughout the skill system .only adds to this . .
ok now im going to lay my idea of the perfect system down here . .
a secondary system that allows players to have a rp skill , and allows players to become crafts men , ie:- half of the system we have now with all the enchanting removed completly , except the masterwork gear a craftsman can make .
a enchanting system like the kemo/soz recepies that no matter how imperfect did work . . for the players . .
========================================================================
siobahns post was on the money , , im sure steven hawkins could create a perfect system and stay true to fantasy world we all play in , as he is no doubt a genius but myself and 90% of the playerbase arnt , so understanding and using such a system would be beyond us . so it would be totaly useless if we the normal players cant use it or find it to difficult to use . the system then becomes useless . .
this is a game , wheres the enjoyment of daily being fustrated by hours of searching and collecting begging and praying for players with the skills you need all to be on at the same time to get the boots you want to find you failed and not only have to start again but have lost all the materials . . . is the main reason nothing is getting crafted. .
the fishing is tragic , its killing the rp here its selling xp and making those who make fish a fortune for hardly doing anything , and prospecting as bad , either of these can make a player ten times what grinding can , there turning haven into a server of fishermen , miners, farmers. .
Shairin telling us we dont know the system is exactly whats wrong with it . we dont understand it ! .that and the fact theres no leatherworking involved in leatherworking and so on right throughout the skill system .only adds to this . .
ok now im going to lay my idea of the perfect system down here . .
a secondary system that allows players to have a rp skill , and allows players to become crafts men , ie:- half of the system we have now with all the enchanting removed completly , except the masterwork gear a craftsman can make .
a enchanting system like the kemo/soz recepies that no matter how imperfect did work . . for the players . .
========================================================================
Sun, 2010-09-19 06:31
#28
Why do you need to know these formulas for crafting while customers are waiting?
You might need them only while building your character if you want to max everything out and create a powerbuild.
You see ingame how likely you are to succeed or fail. You see the number against which you roll, and if that's not user-friendly enough, you even have the probability of success as text.
Imho, the very fact that these formulas are known to the public shows that it's a social server. On a RP server you'd probably keep those secret so players wouldn't optimize their characters for this.
You might need them only while building your character if you want to max everything out and create a powerbuild.
You see ingame how likely you are to succeed or fail. You see the number against which you roll, and if that's not user-friendly enough, you even have the probability of success as text.
Imho, the very fact that these formulas are known to the public shows that it's a social server. On a RP server you'd probably keep those secret so players wouldn't optimize their characters for this.
Sun, 2010-09-19 07:01
#29
Quote:
either of these can make a player ten times what grinding can , there turning haven into a server of fishermen , miners, farmers. .
I don't see that as a bad thing. Before it was all just hunters and grinders.
Imho, it should have a bit of everything. The right amount of fishers, miners, adventurers and commoners/slaves. That's what a social server is for me.
Beside, hunting is still the only source of new gold coins. You can't fish, mine, garden or cook gold coins! So I would say that hunters have a huge advantage there.
That said. I agree that the balance might need some adjustments though.
As I see it:
Grinding/Hunting = Animal hide / parts
Mining = Metal / Ore
Gardening = Fruits and stuff.
Fishing = Fish
Maybe essences shouldn't be minable though. I lack the lore to know if you can find them like this. Maybe they are better distilled from animal parts like in the original nwn2. That would give the hunters more business.
Sun, 2010-09-19 12:10
#30
ok seen as you seem a hundred percent for the system in place then you explain how it isnt working , infact i know you rebuilt to fit with this system , so you go and win the crafters challenge and prove me wrong ,
and everyones keeping quiet about the leather working not touching leather / jeweller buying rings / a woodworker who can make +5 arrows but cant cast a spell .
a mage that can cause meteors to fall or gate a demon from the pits but cant infuse leather with protection even though he can infuse metal ???
sorry but this system is to much intellegance and no common sence , and you come in game with me on tomi and watch him craft and i,ll prove he doesnt get the bonuses he should from his feats and such and yes he has them all . and 32 int. . . but gets a 8 to disstill a essence , if im forced to rebuild tomi i wont rebuild as a crafter to use this system that weas forced on me , . . and you can talk the talk , but will you come ingame and explain why tomi doesnt get these bonuses ,.. and pulling the social server as a answer is rubbish the introduction of this system killed off two guilds and forced a number of players to relev , . that your idea of social cos its not mine , . now this thread is for answers to the problem not to blindly defend it .
and everyones keeping quiet about the leather working not touching leather / jeweller buying rings / a woodworker who can make +5 arrows but cant cast a spell .
a mage that can cause meteors to fall or gate a demon from the pits but cant infuse leather with protection even though he can infuse metal ???
sorry but this system is to much intellegance and no common sence , and you come in game with me on tomi and watch him craft and i,ll prove he doesnt get the bonuses he should from his feats and such and yes he has them all . and 32 int. . . but gets a 8 to disstill a essence , if im forced to rebuild tomi i wont rebuild as a crafter to use this system that weas forced on me , . . and you can talk the talk , but will you come ingame and explain why tomi doesnt get these bonuses ,.. and pulling the social server as a answer is rubbish the introduction of this system killed off two guilds and forced a number of players to relev , . that your idea of social cos its not mine , . now this thread is for answers to the problem not to blindly defend it .
Sun, 2010-09-19 12:59
#31
j0ker_wild wrote:
a mage that can cause meteors to fall or gate a demon from the pits but cant infuse leather with protection even though he can infuse metal ???
As I see it, this is for balance purposes - to prevent anyone from having too many crafts. Some are suggesting either preventing non-casters from making magic items or allowing all items to be 'enchanted' rather than 'created' from scratch as in the current system... but as I see it, the current system is balanced, and gives everyone a chance to create magic items. Your basic enchanter - be it Tomi or Ryn or someone else can't enchant everything in the current system - he has to stick to thaumatology and maybe 1 other area in order to be efficient. Infact, it would make most sense anyway, given the difficulty of the hardest weapon enchantments.
The upside of this is that Jane Fighter with skill level of 20 in armor and a decent study of enchanting (Thaumatology) can make those bracers of armor +8. Or, she could make magic belts if he chose leatherworking. Or she could even be a jeweler, if she worked hard enough (having access to appriase, or perhaps taking a few caster levels to get access to spells instead of scrolls).
Thus presently, you don't need one mage, or five mages, to make all these things, but really, five people of any class - a small circle. Yes, somethings lend themselves better to some classes, but as it stands now, there is a lot of freedom, and characters don't need to be created with crafting in mind and can do it later, after they meet friends.
As a side note, I don't like the idea of taking the ability to craft magic items away from everyone that doesn't have x caster levels and then sticking having to reskill to make masterwork 'base' items in place of the normal weapons crafted or bought from Harl or Larhs.
Also, remember that modifiers affect crafting are divided by 2. This is why odd modifiers, as are as I know, are no more helpful than even modifiers. 18 INT is, I believe, as effective as 20 INT, and can explain some of the discrepancies people believe to seeing.
The crafting system is complex. That doesn't mean it needs to be simplified. It just means we have to do a better job of explaining how it works and simplifying the explanation. In a perfect world, everyone would read and digest pages 40-53 of the handbook, or the equivalent on the wiki, but that is a lot of dense text. Putting the information on the wiki is helpful though.
Sun, 2010-09-19 13:30
#32
I can't remember that I said anything about the recipes in my last two posts here, neither pro nor con. I only quoted the formulas and explained how the GUI works.
Yes, I did rebuild Akhalia, I never claimed anything else. She had barely any crafting skills before, yet she could craft everything. Her wizardly int was enough to push everything.
SoZ crafting was built for level 1-15 or so, it was made for the OC. It was never meant for level 30 characters.
Bring Tomi on next weekend when I'm around and I tell you why you don't get the points you should. It can be that something is bugged.
Yes, I did rebuild Akhalia, I never claimed anything else. She had barely any crafting skills before, yet she could craft everything. Her wizardly int was enough to push everything.
SoZ crafting was built for level 1-15 or so, it was made for the OC. It was never meant for level 30 characters.
Bring Tomi on next weekend when I'm around and I tell you why you don't get the points you should. It can be that something is bugged.
Sun, 2010-09-19 13:47
#33
I dont think its so much that Tomi needs to be shown hun, in all fairness I think he taught most of the current crafters including yourself how it works.
Also as far as Soz crafting goes, yes it was created for the OC, yes it wasnt fully effective on a PW. This is why there was the wonderful invention of what I like to call KEMOSOZ!! It had a great deal of potential, it also offered the opportunity for players to have an input and that was proven with the tinkering.
I would like to see KEMOSOZ running alongside a secondary system and prehaps create some rp for the arcanists in the deal.
A player has an idea for a recipe, they submit it to the DM team for approval. IC it would be passed to the arcanists who would then toil and trouble over a cauldron hehe!! and create the much needed recipe.
What we have to look at here is the following
None of this is going to happen overnight but looking at all the possibilities is the way to go and I think getting as much feedback here as we can will only help in the process.
Also as far as Soz crafting goes, yes it was created for the OC, yes it wasnt fully effective on a PW. This is why there was the wonderful invention of what I like to call KEMOSOZ!! It had a great deal of potential, it also offered the opportunity for players to have an input and that was proven with the tinkering.
I would like to see KEMOSOZ running alongside a secondary system and prehaps create some rp for the arcanists in the deal.
A player has an idea for a recipe, they submit it to the DM team for approval. IC it would be passed to the arcanists who would then toil and trouble over a cauldron hehe!! and create the much needed recipe.
What we have to look at here is the following
- Bang for Bucks
- Does it enhance the experience on the whole
- what are the set backs
- Is it possible to create.
None of this is going to happen overnight but looking at all the possibilities is the way to go and I think getting as much feedback here as we can will only help in the process.
Sun, 2010-09-19 14:55
#34
I have kept quiet so far, but reading this over I have to agree with Gentle and Joker.
Why do we need a fancy, confusing, complicated system, when we can have a very simple system that was easily understandable and provided nice items, better ones at that, like a belt of dextery having freedom of movement, and amulets of natural armor +5. Sure, some of the stuff like prospecting, sewing etc. is nice, but I would sacrifice it anytime for the old system. Why? Because not everyone has the time and mood to grind and collect resources all day, nor do crafters and costumers alike feel like risking to lose stuff worth 50k and more, nor is it fun to wait for equipment until all the people needed to make it were online.
On a heavy RP server? Yes, anytime. On a social server? Heck, I just want to log in, grind a bit, RP a lot, and have my character outfitted with something that perhaps everyone has, but is also readily avaiable, and not too expensive. So what if everyone has it, and is well equipped? A social server for me means also being relaxed on such things.
We have the mix of grinders, powerbuilders, rp builders, roleplayers, hardcore roleplayers, those logging in for smexing alone, those standing about chatting all day here.
So while I see how the intention of the system was to offer more depth, it also adds more frustration. It takes literary 200.000 and more to get your character equipped enough to stand a chance to survive, and lots of hours of playertime. These hours spend hunting for materials could also be spend RPing somewhere. And lets be honest, in the best case 50% of material hunting involves social interaction and RP, the rest is lonesome running and grinding. And before anyone points out to me how having different types of crafters work together like that is promoting social RP: No, just no. If you FORCE them to work together it's not social, but feels pressured. Social for me means log in, have fun, relax, not feel like at work spending hours to find the right person or material to create a little bit of happiness for another player.
This is not meant to offend anyone favoring this system above the old one, but I chose to prefer the old, relaxed crafting and getting equipped.
Why do we need a fancy, confusing, complicated system, when we can have a very simple system that was easily understandable and provided nice items, better ones at that, like a belt of dextery having freedom of movement, and amulets of natural armor +5. Sure, some of the stuff like prospecting, sewing etc. is nice, but I would sacrifice it anytime for the old system. Why? Because not everyone has the time and mood to grind and collect resources all day, nor do crafters and costumers alike feel like risking to lose stuff worth 50k and more, nor is it fun to wait for equipment until all the people needed to make it were online.
On a heavy RP server? Yes, anytime. On a social server? Heck, I just want to log in, grind a bit, RP a lot, and have my character outfitted with something that perhaps everyone has, but is also readily avaiable, and not too expensive. So what if everyone has it, and is well equipped? A social server for me means also being relaxed on such things.
We have the mix of grinders, powerbuilders, rp builders, roleplayers, hardcore roleplayers, those logging in for smexing alone, those standing about chatting all day here.
So while I see how the intention of the system was to offer more depth, it also adds more frustration. It takes literary 200.000 and more to get your character equipped enough to stand a chance to survive, and lots of hours of playertime. These hours spend hunting for materials could also be spend RPing somewhere. And lets be honest, in the best case 50% of material hunting involves social interaction and RP, the rest is lonesome running and grinding. And before anyone points out to me how having different types of crafters work together like that is promoting social RP: No, just no. If you FORCE them to work together it's not social, but feels pressured. Social for me means log in, have fun, relax, not feel like at work spending hours to find the right person or material to create a little bit of happiness for another player.
This is not meant to offend anyone favoring this system above the old one, but I chose to prefer the old, relaxed crafting and getting equipped.
Sun, 2010-09-19 14:56
#35
I think he was quite clear in his post:
I know how the crafting system works, I've seen the code. So I hope I'll be able to explain where all the differences in point come from and why.
Quote:
and you come in game with me on tomi and watch him craft and i,ll prove he doesnt get the bonuses he should from his feats and such and yes he has them all . and 32 int. . . but gets a 8 to disstill a essence
I know how the crafting system works, I've seen the code. So I hope I'll be able to explain where all the differences in point come from and why.
Sun, 2010-09-19 15:22
#36
Delio..rearrange this statement - nail head hit on!! hehe
Sun, 2010-09-19 15:48
#37
shairin wrote:
You just don't know the complete formula.
Have a look at the player handbook:
"Jeweler | Hard | DEX-6"
"Leatherworking | Easy | DEX-4"
So you get a difference from that.
In addition to that:
"Craft Armor adds to Armoury: Body Armor, Leatherworking and Sewing."
"Appraise adds to Jeweler."
So check the difference between those two nwn2 skills as well.
Shairin,
First of all, those modifiers determine the base number you get for spending the first point. thus for the first point you get a 9 Skill in Jeweler, and a 11 in Leatherworker...
Even if that was not the case, it does not explain why the easier skill is harder to complete an item with the same modifier.. In the case I mentioned a Very Hard -6 item... For the Jeweler, a Periapt of Wisdom +6, and for the Leatherworking, Boots of Striding +6.
If it was as you said, the Leatherworking craft should have the 17 Change, and the Jeweler should have a 15.. Not a 17 for the Jeweler and a 13 for the Leatherworker.
Good point on the Appraise and Craft Armor... That is likely the explanation. Though not sure why craft Armor for Leatherworking and Sewing... Except in Leather/Hide Armors..
Sun, 2010-09-19 16:25
#38
Using this system 16.6% of the time items will fail nomatter how skilled the person. In my world contracts get cancelled if reject rate goes above 0.00005% Case in point. An o-ring costing 10 cents gets made, boxed and shipped to the customer at which they put it on a shelf to sit for 18 months. Finally it gets chosen to be put into service. A fluke weather pattern causes the o-ring to become flawed. The flaw ultimately causes a total failure of the machine.
Space Shuttle Challenger January 28, 1986
The probability of that happening is far beyond the scope of a simple game. These characters are not practicing or experimenting. They are making known items. They have a certain number of skill points representing a certain amount of time training/practicing, allowing them to make a certain level of difficulty of item. I see no reason to have roll checks in the first place.
Bar makes servers. How long would he stay in business if 1 out of 20 blew-up, flamed total loss? My guess is he's never had one. The argument that we know more is invalid. These characters would be far smarter than any of us could hope to be, therefore know their world much better.
Space Shuttle Challenger January 28, 1986
The probability of that happening is far beyond the scope of a simple game. These characters are not practicing or experimenting. They are making known items. They have a certain number of skill points representing a certain amount of time training/practicing, allowing them to make a certain level of difficulty of item. I see no reason to have roll checks in the first place.
Bar makes servers. How long would he stay in business if 1 out of 20 blew-up, flamed total loss? My guess is he's never had one. The argument that we know more is invalid. These characters would be far smarter than any of us could hope to be, therefore know their world much better.
- edited for decimal point*
Sun, 2010-09-19 17:20
#39
Deladra wrote:
Using this system 16.6% of the time items will fail nomatter how skilled the person. In my world contracts get cancelled if reject rate goes above 0.00005% Case in point. An o-ring costing 10 cents gets made, boxed and shipped to the customer at which they put it on a shelf to sit for 18 months. Finally it gets chosen to be put into service. A fluke weather pattern causes the o-ring to become flawed. The flaw ultimately causes a total failure of the machine.
Space Shuttle Challenger January 28, 1986
The probability of that happening is far beyond the scope of a simple game. These characters are not practicing or experimenting. They are making known items. They have a certain number of skill points representing a certain amount of time training/practicing, allowing them to make a certain level of difficulty of item. I see no reason to have roll checks in the first place.
Bar makes servers. How long would he stay in business if 1 out of 20 blew-up, flamed total loss? My guess is he's never had one. The argument that we know more is invalid. These characters would be far smarter than any of us could hope to be, therefore know their world much better.
- edited for decimal point*
Deladra,
I understand your point, in the case of many manufactured goods, you account for final product to customer, not those that are removed as flawed during the manufacturing process, and either sent back to be fixed, or removed and discarded as bad.
In the case of building servers, again, you are not accounting for the times when parts/software don't work, and the technician has to go back, and replace the hardware or delete and reinstall the software.
That being the case, and put into the KEMO2.0 Crafting system, the Critical Failure (For a Master Craftsman only a natural 18, a 0.46%, less than one in 100) is a failure, requiring replacement of a part or a re-install...
Now, I agree that the loss of material is too steep, as is being unable to do anything for 15 minutes. That is why, I suggested the - Penalty for X minutes for any Failures. The Apprentice with the 11 or less chance, will be less likely to concentrate, and will have a 12.5% penalty to their success in the short term, while the Grand Master with the only fails on an 18, will only have a additional 1.4% penalty for the same amount of time.
This difference represent exactly what you say, they know their stuff, and when they do mess up, they are not affected as much by their aw-crap than the apprentice. In the manufacturing analogy above, they are able to easily fix the item with minor tweaks, and the apprentice is likely to have to start over from scratch.
Sun, 2010-09-19 17:50
#40
Eric,
In the NWN2 MotB crafting system only those with the required Feats could craft magic Items, and guess what, that ability required "X" caster levels to get, depending on the specific feat.
Having Jane the Fighter be able to make magic items, without the Feat, is exactly the problem. Jane does not have the knowledge of manipulating Magic that is required to mold that magic into an item. Even a Rogue with Use Magic Device, is not knowledgeable enough to do so, they just get lucky on occasion when using a magic item.
I actually like the Secondary Crafting system more than the MotB version, but I agree with Tomi/Dela/Gentle, on many of their complaints too.
Perhaps, a very streamlined MotB system for all the enchanting, with the Other Crafting being the market economy that provides materials and base crafts for such enchanting... Removing Harl and other NPC merchants altogether (Or better yet, having them there to buy basic crafts and materials for a slight price above the cost to make, and selling the same items at a huge markup), and having everything sold at auction.
To have a viable market place, you have to have customers to buy the merchants crafts. When everyone can get what they need from NPC's, who are the crafters going to have for customers?
If you resort to Masterwork Items required for enchantments, and make getting them require numerous attempts, the craftsmen become customers for the raw materials, increasing demand for them, and the general populace becomes the customers for the Masterwork Items they make from those materials. The non Masterwork items they make in their attempts to make the perfect one, are then sellable to the NPC's for shipment to foreign markets (ie... Removed from circulation).
If, on the other hand, any item can be magicked, then the raw materials become harder to sell to the craftsmen, as they have less demand for them, and the gathering craftsmen have no incentive to do so.
For a streamlined MotB system, simple recipes that can be applied to groups of items would suffice. For instance, any weapon and gloves could be enchanted with bonuses to hit, bane, elemental and spell like effects on hit. This would require removing the Thaumaturgy and Theology Crafts altogether, and all the enchantments from the other Secondary Crafts [Except Alchemy/Poison Craft and Tinkering (Trap making)], and addingto some of them such things as Masterwork Base Items, and Special Material Items that have Magical-like Properties due to the Special Materials. [Mithril, Darksteel, Adamantine, Duskwood, Sherredan, Dragon Hide, Salamader Hide, Umber Hulk Hide, etc (These should be expanded to be worth the effort too. For instance Red Dragon Hide should provide 15/- Fire Resistance, 2/- DR, and +1D6 Damage from Cold, while Masterwork Versions could have Fire Immunity, 5/- DR, and Decreases Saving Throw verssu Cold)]
One thing I especially like about the Secondary System, is the ability to get basic raw materials for crafting. I would love for this to be expanded in some ways, and reduced in others... Thus tweaked.
In the NWN2 MotB crafting system only those with the required Feats could craft magic Items, and guess what, that ability required "X" caster levels to get, depending on the specific feat.
Having Jane the Fighter be able to make magic items, without the Feat, is exactly the problem. Jane does not have the knowledge of manipulating Magic that is required to mold that magic into an item. Even a Rogue with Use Magic Device, is not knowledgeable enough to do so, they just get lucky on occasion when using a magic item.
I actually like the Secondary Crafting system more than the MotB version, but I agree with Tomi/Dela/Gentle, on many of their complaints too.
Perhaps, a very streamlined MotB system for all the enchanting, with the Other Crafting being the market economy that provides materials and base crafts for such enchanting... Removing Harl and other NPC merchants altogether (Or better yet, having them there to buy basic crafts and materials for a slight price above the cost to make, and selling the same items at a huge markup), and having everything sold at auction.
To have a viable market place, you have to have customers to buy the merchants crafts. When everyone can get what they need from NPC's, who are the crafters going to have for customers?
If you resort to Masterwork Items required for enchantments, and make getting them require numerous attempts, the craftsmen become customers for the raw materials, increasing demand for them, and the general populace becomes the customers for the Masterwork Items they make from those materials. The non Masterwork items they make in their attempts to make the perfect one, are then sellable to the NPC's for shipment to foreign markets (ie... Removed from circulation).
If, on the other hand, any item can be magicked, then the raw materials become harder to sell to the craftsmen, as they have less demand for them, and the gathering craftsmen have no incentive to do so.
For a streamlined MotB system, simple recipes that can be applied to groups of items would suffice. For instance, any weapon and gloves could be enchanted with bonuses to hit, bane, elemental and spell like effects on hit. This would require removing the Thaumaturgy and Theology Crafts altogether, and all the enchantments from the other Secondary Crafts [Except Alchemy/Poison Craft and Tinkering (Trap making)], and addingto some of them such things as Masterwork Base Items, and Special Material Items that have Magical-like Properties due to the Special Materials. [Mithril, Darksteel, Adamantine, Duskwood, Sherredan, Dragon Hide, Salamader Hide, Umber Hulk Hide, etc (These should be expanded to be worth the effort too. For instance Red Dragon Hide should provide 15/- Fire Resistance, 2/- DR, and +1D6 Damage from Cold, while Masterwork Versions could have Fire Immunity, 5/- DR, and Decreases Saving Throw verssu Cold)]
One thing I especially like about the Secondary System, is the ability to get basic raw materials for crafting. I would love for this to be expanded in some ways, and reduced in others... Thus tweaked.
Sun, 2010-09-19 18:32
#41
I think the last few post demonstrate Delio's post perfectly, should we really need to grab a calculator and sit working out our chances of failing.. Its a game something we play to relax us from the day to day grind.
Could I suggest that we now look at possible resolves, replacements. What would you suggest in place of the current crafting system?
Could I suggest that we now look at possible resolves, replacements. What would you suggest in place of the current crafting system?
Sun, 2010-09-19 18:42
#42
a secondary system that allows players to have a rp skill , and allows players to become crafts men , ie:- half of the system we have now with all the enchanting removed completly , except the masterwork gear a craftsman can make .
so in effect anyone can have a second skill , those who wish to be tradesmen can have a trade make better gear ie:- masterworked . .
a enchanting system like the kemo/soz recepies that no matter how imperfect did work . . for the players . .
and yes left to those amongst us who spent the feats and skills to build a crafter , a wizard and cleric , at a push goi back to mot,b , make the essence more expensive if you need to . .
this to me is the perfect sollution to the problem ,
so in effect anyone can have a second skill , those who wish to be tradesmen can have a trade make better gear ie:- masterworked . .
a enchanting system like the kemo/soz recepies that no matter how imperfect did work . . for the players . .
and yes left to those amongst us who spent the feats and skills to build a crafter , a wizard and cleric , at a push goi back to mot,b , make the essence more expensive if you need to . .
this to me is the perfect sollution to the problem ,
Sun, 2010-09-19 20:06
#43
j0ker_wild wrote:
a secondary system that allows players to have a rp skill , and allows players to become crafts men , ie:- half of the system we have now with all the enchanting removed completly , except the masterwork gear a craftsman can make .
so in effect anyone can have a second skill , those who wish to be tradesmen can have a trade make better gear ie:- masterworked . .
a enchanting system like the kemo/soz recepies that no matter how imperfect did work . . for the players . .
and yes left to those amongst us who spent the feats and skills to build a crafter , a wizard and cleric , at a push goi back to mot,b , make the essence more expensive if you need to . .
this to me is the perfect sollution to the problem ,
I could see the above, and sort of aluded to that in the above post.
KEMO already increased the types of Essences available, and thus increased the cost possibility from them, as she did with the Increased types of Gems...
Though in the place of Gems, what I would prefer to see, is a Jeweler Ability to try to increase the existing Gems values, by making Flawless versions of them, as a craft. Much as the Metals and Woods can be Refined and Wrought, though perhaps melding gems together to make a perfect one, as is done with the metals and wood, is not viable, using the Essences to try to make them Flawless could do...
Example: Jane the Jeweler is trying to make a Flawless Canary Diamond, needed as a material for a Periapt of Wisdom. She takes a normal Canary Diamond and a Radient Power Essence, and merges them. If a normal Success, she ends up with a Cut Canary Diamond, worth an additional 50% of normal, or 4500 Gold. (Canary Diamond is 3000 gold, and Radient Power Essence is 1200 gold. Giving them a 300 gold profit for their efforts.) A Critical Success would result in a Flawless Canary Diamond worth twice the value of a normal one. (6000 gold)
This would provide three varieties of Gems for Enchantment recipes, for fine tuning the cost of materials.
The key to this, is a steady stream of the raw materials needed. To do this, would require a couple of steps:
1) Reduce the materials found adventuring to those that cannot be crafted only, and are needed for crafting. (Dragon Hides, Dinosaur Fangs, Umber Hulk Hides, etc...)
2) Change the Prospecting Craft to provide Metal Ingots, Basic Gems (NWN2 base list, and remove the Emerald Beryl's, Tektites, etc) and Faint or Weak Essences only (To provide Alchemists a steady source of these to refine into better more powerful ones.)
3) Make generic recipes for the effects (Resistances, Elemental, Armor, Dodge, Attribute Enhancement, Spell Resistance, Freedom of Movement) and limit them to general classes of items (Weapons, Armor, Boots, Cloaks, Rings, Belts, etc...), not specific types (Gold Rings, Hide Boots, Gloves, etc) Some effects will be limited to what they can be applied to... Dodge for Boots for instance, though I could see it working with Weapons, Shields, Armor, and Cloaks, in effect provided a displacement type effect to the wearers Armor Class. This will provide a greater degree of creativity to what players and crafters make. As long as the bonuses do not stack, it will balance itself out.
I am sure there are other things I am not thinking of right now, but you get the general gist.
Sun, 2010-09-19 20:57
#44
Following up more, with some thought...
I hear the point about skills mixes and how enchanting by creating the item from scratch and/or needing to know the skills required to make the item... like leatherworking... conflicts with some balances and thoughts about how enchanting should work and makes it frustrating to build an enchanter.
I also can see why this would be desirable. It does make sense to me that leatherworking might be useful for enchanting leathergoods.
Am wondering if we could make both possible. Maybe its cheaper to craft the item if you know these additional skills, or gives you bonuses therefore a higher chance to critical.
Just an acknowledgement of the point and thinking outloud on the topic.
- Bar
I hear the point about skills mixes and how enchanting by creating the item from scratch and/or needing to know the skills required to make the item... like leatherworking... conflicts with some balances and thoughts about how enchanting should work and makes it frustrating to build an enchanter.
I also can see why this would be desirable. It does make sense to me that leatherworking might be useful for enchanting leathergoods.
Am wondering if we could make both possible. Maybe its cheaper to craft the item if you know these additional skills, or gives you bonuses therefore a higher chance to critical.
Just an acknowledgement of the point and thinking outloud on the topic.
- Bar
Sun, 2010-09-19 21:00
#45
Also on another topic... am hearing that turning back on KEMO SOZ would be desirable. Will consider the feasibility and desirability.
- Bar
- Bar
Sun, 2010-09-19 21:26
#46
3d6 3-18 15 posible results 1/15 0.0666 6.666% I hit the one by error on my edit. Sloppiness on my part. Unless i'm wrong on the 3d6.
Let me tell you a story.
I was playing Need for Speed one day when my nephew and sister showed up. Of course my nephew wants to play so I let him. I had it set up difficult but he was getting the hang of it after a bit. At one point the road takes a dip and curves to the right. I saw where he was set up and told him he is going to hit the second pole at the bottom of the hill. I had enough time to casually say that and look at my sister to see her expresion as he hit the second pole at the bottom of the hill. They were both stunned at what I did.
There was no magic, voodoo, premonition or super natural in it. It's the difference of practice and knowledge. I knew, I had hit that pole a few times too. If the situation is simple and controlled, someone that knows can make corrections two steps before someone without the knowledge, experience even sees the problem.
Going back to manufacturing. Machines pump out stuff at a blistering pace 24/7 and have pretty good self checks but the end product still needs to be check by a person. A person may or may not catch a defect, too many variables there. That is where you get scrap from. The machine is fast, but when it screws up, there is no way to stop it before its to late.
That's not the way I do things or the way its done in game. Every part has eyes on it all the way through. The customer can't tell if the part has been an SOB needing fixing all the way through or went through clean. Fixing means time, no part is lost.
Back to building servers. Buy cheep, buy twice. When one part costs less than another same specification part there generally is a reason. Most of the time that is less inspection during assembly. Checking cost time, time is money.
Playing the game, time is the most precious thing. It takes time to grind for the gold. I don't have time for things going poof because of a bad roll. I don't have time to stand around waiting to try again for something my character has made many times before.
- sigh* Those that do not know, do not believe.
Let me tell you a story.
I was playing Need for Speed one day when my nephew and sister showed up. Of course my nephew wants to play so I let him. I had it set up difficult but he was getting the hang of it after a bit. At one point the road takes a dip and curves to the right. I saw where he was set up and told him he is going to hit the second pole at the bottom of the hill. I had enough time to casually say that and look at my sister to see her expresion as he hit the second pole at the bottom of the hill. They were both stunned at what I did.
There was no magic, voodoo, premonition or super natural in it. It's the difference of practice and knowledge. I knew, I had hit that pole a few times too. If the situation is simple and controlled, someone that knows can make corrections two steps before someone without the knowledge, experience even sees the problem.
Going back to manufacturing. Machines pump out stuff at a blistering pace 24/7 and have pretty good self checks but the end product still needs to be check by a person. A person may or may not catch a defect, too many variables there. That is where you get scrap from. The machine is fast, but when it screws up, there is no way to stop it before its to late.
That's not the way I do things or the way its done in game. Every part has eyes on it all the way through. The customer can't tell if the part has been an SOB needing fixing all the way through or went through clean. Fixing means time, no part is lost.
Back to building servers. Buy cheep, buy twice. When one part costs less than another same specification part there generally is a reason. Most of the time that is less inspection during assembly. Checking cost time, time is money.
Playing the game, time is the most precious thing. It takes time to grind for the gold. I don't have time for things going poof because of a bad roll. I don't have time to stand around waiting to try again for something my character has made many times before.
Mon, 2010-09-20 09:31
#47
Bar, if you intend to reactivate SoZ crafting, you will probably need to fix three things:
1) Caster level checks are bugged, and do not work as advertised in NWScript. That being said, if you want to deal with the headaches, it would not be difficult to adjust Secondary Skills enchantment to use caster levels instead of individual spells - which it does in order to get around the caster level check bug.
2) Under SoZ crafting, enchanting ANY item with enchantment X will cost a set amount of gold, regardless of the item being enchanted. This means that some enchantments placed on items will produce items that are increased in value by that gold amount, and other items that are increased in value by half or double that gold amount. It is highly imbalanced, and permitted some really absurd results. The bottom of Reply #43 (Siobhan Mochrie) seeks to return to this imbalancing issue. If you make it so that enchantments can operate on any item (rather than specific item types), then you won't be able to adjust the enchantment cost based on how much more valuable it makes the item being enchanted. It also means that - like with SoZ crafting - you can enchant items with effects that create significant balance issues just by being on them.
3) The costs to craft via SoZ are not the same as the costs to craft via Secondary Skills. If you decide to keep both systems operating, you will need to fix the roughly 650 secondary skill recipes (or the ~500 recipes and recipe items for SoZ).
If you remove the gems that I added to the system, you will have to modify at least half of the recipes that currently exist. And for most of those, you will have to find alternative means of absorbing the cost value. The stock NWN2 gems do not cover a sufficient spread of values; that's why I created new ones.
To Reply #46 regarding the chance of failure: if your effective skill is 16 or higher, the chance of any kind of failure is 1.9% (on a roll of 17 or 18). Any effective skill level higher than 16 still fails on 17 or 18, so it's still 1.9%. You're getting the 6.67% result from bad math. Not every roll result has the same chance of coming up when you roll 3d6. It's a bell curve, not a flat line.
Bear in mind also that in a pre-modern, pre-industrialized society, the failure rate for crafting was much, much higher than it is today. 1.9% is ridiculously generous; the fact that Haven is a magic-infused fantasy environment takes that into account, as far as I'm concerned. To put it bluntly, Deladra's analogy to servers and other modern manufacturing processes is entirely spurious.
1) Caster level checks are bugged, and do not work as advertised in NWScript. That being said, if you want to deal with the headaches, it would not be difficult to adjust Secondary Skills enchantment to use caster levels instead of individual spells - which it does in order to get around the caster level check bug.
2) Under SoZ crafting, enchanting ANY item with enchantment X will cost a set amount of gold, regardless of the item being enchanted. This means that some enchantments placed on items will produce items that are increased in value by that gold amount, and other items that are increased in value by half or double that gold amount. It is highly imbalanced, and permitted some really absurd results. The bottom of Reply #43 (Siobhan Mochrie) seeks to return to this imbalancing issue. If you make it so that enchantments can operate on any item (rather than specific item types), then you won't be able to adjust the enchantment cost based on how much more valuable it makes the item being enchanted. It also means that - like with SoZ crafting - you can enchant items with effects that create significant balance issues just by being on them.
3) The costs to craft via SoZ are not the same as the costs to craft via Secondary Skills. If you decide to keep both systems operating, you will need to fix the roughly 650 secondary skill recipes (or the ~500 recipes and recipe items for SoZ).
If you remove the gems that I added to the system, you will have to modify at least half of the recipes that currently exist. And for most of those, you will have to find alternative means of absorbing the cost value. The stock NWN2 gems do not cover a sufficient spread of values; that's why I created new ones.
To Reply #46 regarding the chance of failure: if your effective skill is 16 or higher, the chance of any kind of failure is 1.9% (on a roll of 17 or 18). Any effective skill level higher than 16 still fails on 17 or 18, so it's still 1.9%. You're getting the 6.67% result from bad math. Not every roll result has the same chance of coming up when you roll 3d6. It's a bell curve, not a flat line.
Bear in mind also that in a pre-modern, pre-industrialized society, the failure rate for crafting was much, much higher than it is today. 1.9% is ridiculously generous; the fact that Haven is a magic-infused fantasy environment takes that into account, as far as I'm concerned. To put it bluntly, Deladra's analogy to servers and other modern manufacturing processes is entirely spurious.
Mon, 2010-09-20 09:57
#48
Siobhan Mochrie wrote:
Good point on the Appraise and Craft Armor... That is likely the explanation. Though not sure why craft Armor for Leatherworking and Sewing... Except in Leather/Hide Armors..
Because I had to give those skills *something* to use as a bonus from D&D skills, or else I would have gotten a whole new kind of crap from leatherworkers and tailors feeling shafted. If you can think of a better D&D skill to use as a bonus, suggest it. But I'll wager that you can't, because D&D skills are silly and are geared almost entirely toward dungeon-crawling rather than roleplaying.
Mon, 2010-09-20 10:07
#49
gentle_breeze wrote:
I think thats half the problem to be honest.. your ingame with a customer waiting and you have to consult handbooks and work out formulas to see if you can craft, this is a game, a social server.. i think your explination Sharin actually shows us another fault in the system it just isnt user friendly.
The system tells you whether or not you can craft it, right there on the recipe when you go to click it. It gives you your modifiers, it gives you your component requirements, it gives you your effective skill, it gives you in plain language the likelihood that you will get a positive result.
Mon, 2010-09-20 10:17
#50
kemo wrote:
Bar, if you intend to reactivate SoZ crafting, you will probably need to fix three things:
...
Thanks for the input... I was having trouble finding the list of things to address for SoZ. I did recall you mentioning some of these issues, which is why am not entirely sure this is a good plan.
- Bar
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