Charisma is your ability to influence/inspire/manipulate others. How your character does that is entirely up to you. It could be because of stunning beauty, it could be a voice like honey. It could be because they're fucking imposing as hell.

You can be pretty without high charisma, and you can have high charisma without being pretty.

Interesting! So it's basically up to the player's interpretation to decide how charisma affects them?

Well it should be up to a player to decide how their own character's charisma shows itself -- or how they would like it to show itself if the dice gods favor them. Someone who wants to play a battle weary soldier who is still capable of inspiring soldiers/mobs to action is entirely different in theme than a lovely courtesan bard from afar who flirts with nobility - but both of those would be examples of moderate-high charisma characters. It's the player's personal choice that determines what charisma means to that character, just like it's their choice what race their char is, what color their hair is, etc (within server restrictions, of course)

How their character's charisma actually affects others (and vice versa; how other character's charisma affects your character) is something else entirely.

Another important thing to note about a charisma score is that it is not a tool that should or can be used to not RP how your character has influence. I've never been comfortable responding to a high charisma score if the player is unable to RP their score convincingly.
Charisma does not work like this:

Player A: "I don't really want to do that"

Player B: "You should do that"

Player A: "You're right, I should do that!"

Player B needs to actively make somewhat that seems like a plaucible way for them to convince the other, either in speech or in emotes, depending on how their charisma score comes about. The same goes for charisma based skills like intimidate. Make it convincing, or don't play it.

I definitely agree with you there, Primeval. This isn't Star Wars, and we don't have Jedi Mind Trick at our disposal.

What does sort of annoy me (though not so much in this server, because this isn't really a hardcore RP server), is when people play low-charisma characters but roleplay them as both suave and attractive. It seems to me that a character cannot be an effective smoothtalker without a good charisma score.

I believe the difference is this is a social server and not a hardcore RP server. It is strongly encouraged that you should role play your attributes, but you won't be penalised for not doing so. The enjoyment of the player, supersedes the "realism" of this fantasy setting while not diminishing it completely. I find that Haven and its Staff is, quite ardently, trying their best to find a golden middleroad and I respect that attempt.


Personally I try to play by my charactersheet as best I can for my own gratification simply because it gives me a great angle to discover my characters weaknesses and strengths; its for my own sake and not the ones I role play with I do this. It's for that same reason, I do not demand they do the same (but admittedly I do hope so =) in case they don't feel the same way.

If you ever encounter a player that does not enjoy the same playstyle as yourself, I can only recommend that you do not role play with them. That's not to say one way is better than the other, simply that we have different views and don't always agree on what we find enjoyable.

Charisma is only useful in game for dice throws and sorcery. My char is a sorcerer, so she is maxed there!

my opinion on Charisma is in the eye of the beholder

for Casavir my main character he has a 16 but i don't see him as charming or handsome but sociable able to contribute in a non hostile way.

Easy to say but then what do you say to those playing a 30 INT? There is no way to really do that as it is near impossible in RL to have such a stat. The fact is that were are playing the role on our character sheet. Expecting someone who is not charismatic in RL to be simply because their character is, is a bit much.

If someone makes an attempt even if they inform me OOC should they be unable to form the words and emotes to convey just how charismatic/diplomatic/intimidating their character is and can back that up with a nice skill roll or a CHA stat then I oblige them and don't hold the player to any certain standard of RP excellence as you seem to be demanding here.

I generally find that charisma=looks is silly, and here is why:

You start your character at level 1 and let's just say that he/she is charisma based. You start at 16 charisma, and you level all the way to 30. Suddenly your character became prettier after killing a few hundred monsters. I just don't see that happening, nor do I see the point in why a Nymph Cloak should instantly make your character prettier/more ugly by equipping it or taking it off.

Incidentally, there's a reason why charisma, wisdom and intelligence is referred to as 'mental stats'. As a druid, you keep your charisma score when shape shifting into a huge treant. Okay, you're suddenly a handsome tree?

Personally I try to RP low charisma as having low social skills. It simply makes more sense to me. Don a cloak of charisma and gain confidence because you're wearing a sassy cloak!

TLDR; My point is, you can't force people to think your character is stunningly pretty, because beauty is subjective. A character may be a bulging hunk of muscles or have large 'assets', but there's still bound to be some who doesn't find it attractive ICly. No amount of stats will change that.

I've always been a firm believer in the Hackmaster system that solved this issue head on. In Hackmaster you not only had Cha score but Comeliness. Comeliness was your pt score for looks and the way you carried yourself etc. Cha was more speech craft and persuasiveness.

Best example i can give is Hitler was a high Cha speech maker, but was a short little silly mustachioed man with a comeliness in the negatives.

Even with low Charisma your char can look good and be a smoothtalker. As others said, your char looks the way you imagine him, and a charisma score doesn't limit you there.

As for smoothtalking vs low charisma: Same as with Intelligence, the borders of IC and OOC blurr here somewhat. You can easily play a dumb char or someone who's just not overly social. But the other way around is more tricky. You can of course play a smoothtalker and an intelligent char, but only if you can play them if you get what I mean

Basically, if you as the player don't have the typing abilities to find the words to convince another character of something, diplomacy rolls or high charisma rolls won't personally impress me there. I'm on the lane RP is paramount to mechanics.

RP may be more important than mechanics but if I see a smooth talker with zero skill invested in social skills, and negative charisma it won't matter to me at all how well they can type and how pretty they make their RP. Why ? because they are godmodding.

Let's take a very clear cut exemple to illustrate this. You RP your character being able to lift an anvil and throwing it twenty feet. You do that with a superb bit of text and everyone agrees you're the next Shakespear for it. Only problem your character sheet says you have a str score of 8.

RPing a smoothtalker when you have low cha and zero skill points in social skills is like saying you're the strongest man on earth with a str score of 8. It's godmodding you don't have that kind of abilities at all.

a simple stat roll can't substitute for good RP on that I agree but the inverse is true as well. No matter how good your rp it can't substitute for the stats you don't have. If it did then I declare Saul to be a greater deity and I smite everyone else with no saves allowed.

Surely Charisma is more about personality, magnetism, leadership? British Army Officer class, for instance, for a moderately high score. Excessive scores and the character should act like Alexander The Great or Julius Ceasar.

Given sorcery and FS spells come from personal magnetism someone has that attracts the blessings of the gods, surely that fits too? Has nothing to do with looks, I think?

Well if you are going to get into "Do not play the character if you can not play the stats" Why do we also not get into. Do not play a martial character if you can not accurately RP out a fight scene without the roles. Now I imagine there are some people on this server that are martial artist. Have trained with a sword of some type. Most likely not in wearing armor. Fighting with armor sword and shield. Etc. It is just plain inane to say "You can not use your stat sheet. But you must limit yourself to it."

Now on to the question of the thread. Charisma can affect appearance in many ways. It can be from a shallow twit of a woman that happens to be irresistably beautiful. Or it can be a austure but plainly faced woman that bears herself regally. With that natural air of command and grace. The devilish rogue. A smooth talker. Slick as oil as he goes down and you just dont know what happened to your panties. Goes vice-versa from man to woman. It all comes down to perception. And skill set. You can not take Charisma alone I think. But also have to take into consideration skills to help define and shape your RP of your innate charisma.

A very good example of a man with Charisma, is the man from "Thank you for smoking" If you've seen the movie..
He doesnt look that good, but still he is a damned amazing smoothtalker.

I don't see why losing an eye should affect charisma. One eyed, eye-patch wearing pirates can be sexy as hell, and I include the sexy eye-patch wearing women as well, but that is me.

In regard to the overall theme of the thread, playing charisma, here is my two-cents. I realy wont be upset if someone is playing their character as sexy and suave without the stats on their character sheet to support it. That said, playing the game is much more fun with those that do play to their character sheet.

By way of explaination I will only say that I have found that those that do not play to their character sheet seem to be attempting to portray their character as an uber-character of some sort, like James Bond or something, able to dominate any situation that arises, and playing with those types is not as much fun. You can be certain they will exploit your character's weaknesses at every opportunity without offering any weaknesses in turn. Please note, I said not as much fun. I still have fun playing with those type of characters. It is just a different sort of fun.

And a final note in regard to palying to the character sheet. It is a bit annoying when a character tells a ridiculous lie to my drow character and then rolls a bluff that makes her believe it. It would be so much more fun if there was a cleverness to the lie. And i am afraid that high Charisma or no, if you cannot make an encounter reasonably interesting Siara will not be interested.

As Celina said, and i agree, the DMs do an admirable job of trying to find a middle ground. It is hard on this type of server. I would add that it is not the DM's responsibility alone. It is ours also.

Oh. I had another thought on this. IF you wanted to play the not very pretty. But still the master of social graces. Make your charisma a 10. Then cap out your social skills. Diplomacy bluff and intimidation.

Back in the day... (when we rp'd around a table and had dice... ), my D&D group used a specific character sheet that allowed us to split stats.

For example: My wizard has a charisma of 12. The reaction adjustment is 0. They are a neutral sort. But, lets say he's spent his skill points in etiquette, leadership and whatever (lets say fork use) *laughs* So, he's pretty average on the looks department, but if he is forced to roll a skills check he gets his bonuses from where he spent is points.

Mind you, this is based on 2e, so with a base of 12 and a +2 from his investment in etiquette, if he rolls a 12 he gets +2, making his roll a 14, which converts to a +1 reaction adjustment.

I always enjoyed when people played characters with like an 18, charisma, but they lacked in social graces. Was hilarious to watch them try to pick up on other players or npc's and get shot down because they played them as being hot, but dumb as a rock, or having halitosis or a stutter.

It requires of course some work on the player's' part to do that, but, it is loads of fun for everyone else. The 17 charisma paladin who eats like a junk yard dog and couldn't speak to a pretty girl if his life depended on it, but can command his troops like a four star general. That charisma comes in where it counts, while in certain social situations he's all thumbs.

• shrugs*

I say we officially link CHA to penis size and bust size. So all you males runnning around with 12 inches better have a 24 CHA to back it up. Those with CHA scores of 8, well just remember it is not the size of the boat that counts. For the gals I would say CHA score of 10 is a B cup. For every 2 points above that you get another cup. So all you sway back babes, check those scores.

Ok maybe not, but I am in one of those moods.

12inches would give you a +10 to intimidated against women o.O

What's my svirfneblin's bust size with a CHA of 4? Negative boobs?

Charisma being based on looks is a AD&D system, and it has no real bareing in 3.0 and above. Sence nwn2 is based on D&D 3.0 and 3.5, there is no reason why charisma sould be based on looks. The reason why it was usefull in AD%D and D&D was because there wasn't any charicters truely BASED on charisma, and few used it at all.

Though i have been playing a table top game and we use the optional Comliness roll. Its a 7th stat that alows you to determing your looks and influence on the oposit sex. The method we use to to determine your com, is 4d6, dropp the lowest number + charisma modifier.

Its not the best system, but it works for out group. So i think if you want to add this rule maybe add into your bio.

The flaw in this system is that it implies everyones liking the same look.

In normal D&D you could go with that, but in Haven? Hardly. Tastes vary too much.

If we look at charisma alone without the D&D rules, then it has two meanings:
- compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others.
- a divinely conferred power or talent.

Bards use both, probably. Favoured Souls and Clerics clearly the second meaning.

If we stick with the first one, then it can be looks but doesn't have to be. Further more, it says that it "can" inspire devotion, but doesn't have to. Charm doesn't affect everyone equally. You'd have to roll a d20 the first time you meet someone to see how your charm applies to them. But that's not feasible. Maybe on a hardcore RP server, but not in Haven.

I'm inclined to say that the CHA ability is the divinely conferred power and you're free to play your character any way you want (or can).

Don't forget that charisma also powers raw faith. A paladin's lay on hands, turning undead, divine shield, divine might, divine grace are all based on faith. Charisma is more of the power of personality of the character than just attractiveness, however others tend to react to powerful personalities by gravitating toward them.

I almost always play my characters as having far higher charisma than they have.

This is because I am suave and charming, but I like to play melee-oriented characters who don't really use charisma for anything, so I dumpstat it.

I tend to view charisma stats in the same way I view intelligence and wisdom as a stat - they are used only when the game engine demands it. It doesn't matter how high a certain character's charisma is - if I'm not impressed, I'm not impressed. Similarily, if I think a character is as dumb as a box of rocks, I'm not going to be swayed by a high intelligence score. And if a first level cleric charges an ancient red dragon with a butterknife, you're not going to convince me the cleric is very wise at all.

Having learned that this server is very high magic in terms of ability score points, I've had to adapt my already lenient understanding of the stats comparability to in game behaviour etc to be even more accommodating.

The root of the problem is that charisma, wisdom and intelligence are mental stats, yet the only unproblematic way to apply them is to reason that they're only combat skills.

Beauty, wisdom, wit, intelligence - they're all in the eye of the Elder Beholder.

You can't play a character who is wiser than you are.
... or more intelligent.
... or more charismatic.

And big boobs don't make leading armies easier.

) I don't mean to impose my view, but this is how I see things. People listing their 50 Charismas in their descriptions means nothing to me if they can't act the part.